From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2024 07:14:25 -0400 Message-ID: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17487"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 23 13:15:42 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sLLC9-0004Iq-CA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 13:15:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLLBS-0001su-My; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 07:14:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLLBL-0001rg-Au for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 07:14:51 -0400 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01:e000:3d8::1]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLLBH-0003lV-K1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 07:14:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: References:In-Reply-To:Subject:CC:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=bsBWoMQ92MjCXyxIxGUqAGossHYcHg+L3s32W7njES0=; b=mJEFUpQ2W69z6M9j53xCvouTLu M+CW77HoJqUnpj01FFKBqYnV+L8Iz7yNAM9vU5ok2nfipG8Q4h8nxJJvCUvst/58O2XJFrwwAMT29 W7Zdqx0OAg62Nu15Ayi6TAS9X3bp7Hun28NWScbfyD6o040vZ9rkyp2Vo9kMHLm+co+njLrAXvaIG QLWF06FzDpuqOgklDO78e5B0PU+QEic3y4Fte3cp6UkODFgl7Im4w3zycHZlpuhw1gZGxygjjiEjd O+gMQyXCrYEUnLYWzCb7b3O0aCoVy9yslbJRaIym36JTaDcsEOZBLPtgpptgfgUeA1IDdvxuMfP4K WmjKNnvg==; Original-Received: from 2603-9001-4203-1ab2-9ec1-9764-cbee-ea26.inf6.spectrum.com ([2603:9001:4203:1ab2:9ec1:9764:cbee:ea26]:33984 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1sLLAx-0004Og-U9; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 07:14:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2600:3c01:e000:3d8::1; envelope-from=dancol@dancol.org; helo=dancol.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320511 Archived-At: On June 23, 2024 6:05:13 AM EDT, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >Hello, Stefan and Stefan=2E > >On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 15:39:09 -0500, Stefan Kangas wrote: >> Stefan Monnier writes: > >> > A few years ago, Daniel suggested: >> >> Likewise, for windmove, we can bind C-x 4 {left, right, up, down} an= d DWIM >> >> for people automatically, enabled by default=2E >> > >> > AFAICT we still don't actually provide any keybindings for the windmo= ve >> > commands by default=2E Did I miss a controversy about that, or did i= t >> > just fall through the cracks? > >> FWIW, I don't remember any controversy either, so my guess is that it >> just fell through the cracks=2E > >I would be against using C-x 4 or C-x 5 for >windmove (or anything else) by default=2E Key sequences with arrow keys >are too few, and too precious, to use for anything not critically >important=2E > >windmove is not critically important=2E Either it isn't used at all by a >user (likely most users), or it is used all the time (by a small number >of users)=2E In the latter case, the user will already have bound the >commands to key sequences, since they are not useful called from M-x=2E > >It wasn't so long ago that we were removing default key bindings so as >to free them up for other uses=2E I don't think there's any reason to >reverse that policy for windmove=2E It just isn't important enough=2E > >There will be users who've bound these key bindings for their own uses=2E >Let's not mess these users around=2E The arrow keys don't have any meaning after C-x 4 today, and the meaning I= 've been wanting to give them is useful and logical=2E I've been using the = arrow key setup for years locally and it works very well=2E It really does = make window management much less annoying, and it's not like we're going to= use the arrow keys for anything else under C-x 4=2E As for windmove being used by users --- well, wouldn't it be nice if we ha= d metrics like other modern software projects? But that aside, even if wind= move is sparsely used today, might that be because it's inconvenient to use= without bindings? Your argument is a general purpose argument against havi= ng default bindings, isn't it? Key bindings are precious, and we shouldn't = waste them on unimportant things, and if the things were important, we woul= dn't need default key bindings for them anyway because users would have alr= eady created their own=2E The argument seems a bit circular to me=2E