From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Dave Pawson" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: My emacs was upgraded and I am a novice again Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:26:38 +0100 Message-ID: <711a73df0709230126n180c768bucb3dd65f172ccd4@mail.gmail.com> References: <46F2BA57.3060604@gmail.com> <711a73df0709212204r65af300cr37aab355f244176e@mail.gmail.com> <87ps09q3ki.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1190536028 27945 80.91.229.12 (23 Sep 2007 08:27:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 08:27:08 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 23 10:27:02 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IZMns-0006vF-VV for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 10:27:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZMnq-0002K5-09 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 04:26:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IZMna-0002Eh-N8 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 04:26:42 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IZMnY-00026B-18 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 04:26:42 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZMnX-00025l-UA for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 04:26:39 -0400 Original-Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.190]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IZMnX-0001DJ-Ho for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 04:26:39 -0400 Original-Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c27so1087924rvf for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:26:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=7Fv7ppf6Pul7SXYaDAJ8FXZjQg2Jh2vy1HgAkwof7x8=; b=bW53OW/mlRJ5uB7HUilEOlAOWjeBwxPPxCXv9GL51b/xFPM9/uUWPf61+NlN0dWPF7cVbv65DG6DSI5jN0IPkH2yzBN4YOvYNmtBQERvFwQSRU9D+z6bp5TL9dU0GdPyLPYPM3VF6gxOr4rsFV+N4CFxxR/xQPbHDEPQ7lcymYY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CiQN49bZL1wiMm/zpjflsEbPtCLNr4zsMgw5VZ5W90RfLrubHUVkA+4vzCZrJFLzH6d6mOoE+sTuRcB+641zBAeVQSYLNRLBwAQKbg/c7iSp2uBAZ2Z++oaK0Y0QnR7HggkmXvdzF/w2dfMlGeiiGffmV2qkYXqTMQbB3OG8y6E= Original-Received: by 10.141.34.12 with SMTP id m12mr179982rvj.1190535998507; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.141.69.5 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:26:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87ps09q3ki.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> Content-Disposition: inline X-Detected-Kernel: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:47754 Archived-At: On 23/09/2007, Tim X wrote: > I'll start by saying I'm really not trying to be difficult here and realy > want to understand why you are finding the emacs features and functions so > difficult to feel comfortable with. The main issue I have trouble > understanding is that you seem to be coming from the position where you > find the help system lacking, yet I find the emacs help system to be the > best I've ever come across in any software package I've used in over 20 > years of working with software. The fact you don't seem to be finding it > that good in itself indicates a possible problem, but I don't understand > what the basis of that is. Part of me feels that in some way your working > against the system rather than adapting to it (plus maybe a bit of the lazy > web syndrome :-). Quite possibly right on both counts Tim. I'll emphasise your phrasing. 'Rather than adapting to it'. I'd rather adapt technology to what I want in preference to learning how a system works and adapting my way of working to the tool. > > I'll try to briefly outline how I started with emacs. Maybe the differences > in our approaches will clarify matters. > > When I first started emacs, the very first thing I did was do the built-in > tutorial. Have you ever done that? No. Why? Because the baseline info system I found klunky and horrible. I'll guess its because I came from a hyperlinked world view. > > The second thing I did was read the intro section in the emacs manual. I > then read the help section. If all else fails, RTFM But I guess you know that by now. > > I spent a bit of time playing around with the commands described in the > help section and got to understand what they all did. This was possibly the > most beneficial effort I put in. Knowing how to search the info manual, > jump to specific sections based on what the point was on within a buffer, > search for keywords etc was extremely useful. Noting that I was trying to learn SGML, DSSSL, Scheme at the time, emacs was the only editor I found that could tackle them. Hence I viewed emacs as a tool on the way to doing a job, not an end in its own right? I *think* this was before I bought my first Learning emacs book too. > > After a few months, I had pretty much completely read the emacs manual from > front to back. I often made use of the glossory and concept index > sections. Aside. I'm currently converting basic.texi, and noted that it has a number of indices, something that docbook processing currently doesn't support. +1 to texinfo... until it's added to the docbook processing. While it may sound disconcerting that it took me a few months to > cover all this material, it is important to remember that I was productive > with emacs from the first day and that it is a large feature rich > package. Nobody is going to get across all it has to offer in a few hours > or even a few days. As reported by others and experienced first hand, emacs > is a package which will continue to reveal new features or ways of using > known existing features for a long time - possibly indefinitely. In fact, > it has so much, I doublt theer is anyone who is across all of it. In fact, > after over 10 years of use, there is considerable functionality that I have > forgotten about and only remember it when I see a post or an item on the > wiki that reminds me. I doubt many will argue with that Tim. Marvelous bit of kit. I'm beginning to appreciate that the documentation for emacs actually matches its capability. What I don't agree is that it is presented in an approachable manner. > > I think its very size and number of features means it is unlikely anyone > will every be successful in finding a solution that makes it almost > automatic or intuitive or even straight-forward to find the precise feature > that meets their requirement. For one thing, it will be impossible to index > things in a way that is intuitive to everyone - people just vary too much > in how they think, the terms and language they use and their > backgrounds. We should certainly try to make this as easy as possible, but > I personally find that it does a really good job of that already and can't > see anything obvious that will improve the situation. Of course, I freely > admit I could be totally wrong, which is why I suggest an emacs wiki > page. If I am wrong, I would expect lots of people will have things to > add. If this turns out to be the situation, then there may be a case for > adding that content to the manual or as an aditional file in the > distribution. Whats the saying? Different strokes for different folks. I'm fully sympathetic to the view that we'll never get an index to suite everyone. I do think presentation and cross-referencing can be improved though. That's my starting point. regards -- Dave Pawson XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. http://www.dpawson.co.uk