From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Dave Pawson" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: My emacs was upgraded and I am a novice again Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 17:37:07 +0100 Message-ID: <711a73df0709220937j8609c6dp73869d7726279e07@mail.gmail.com> References: <711a73df0709220612x13ce8302odcfd43a8f2dadd3@mail.gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1190479057 3125 80.91.229.12 (22 Sep 2007 16:37:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 16:37:37 +0000 (UTC) To: "emac list" Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 22 18:37:31 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IZ7yw-0000m5-PI for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:37:27 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZ7yt-00081P-Od for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:37:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IZ7yh-00081K-A2 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:37:11 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IZ7yf-000818-TA for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:37:10 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZ7yf-000815-NN for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:37:09 -0400 Original-Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.186]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IZ7yf-0007NA-LB for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:37:10 -0400 Original-Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c27so998841rvf for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:37:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Q5hzaipBpeJBGXaVEYrl7mgx8dY0pTw09QIEJH6ca6I=; b=E6F+yK9uSDkQ4T4rey+QvsWM2rtjJwVzM7NjGnQR9K7jdilp/Cdjmz+Hy/Ny+V44xJfOBpseDxDL3sNwZ8AtBtZCuLtg/tgYEfCNcAcqDaqAc5eopbmBmb2vBoQkZoupHCb0CTMM4MulBsgKhV/z9FnuFb3h6O8AZ6yHo3lCkt4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=FVddDjHKTGKiwbjKGdxWD6BypF/LsSocIydSXiKT8zcdihp9lgDcmesMkbA1gM3ZWfmClUO8Od7yqtmO8vjTvswUh+b3GfS+4Rg1mNWc97zVjXIhg2nt+5/7CVm4mLI6Qqj9iqcQy72TvKrqULQdMQt7YtCXGunXbW7ZQZ6BQeg= Original-Received: by 10.140.170.12 with SMTP id s12mr892258rve.1190479027662; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.141.69.5 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:37:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline X-Detected-Kernel: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:47743 Archived-At: On 22/09/2007, Drew Adams wrote: > Nothing wrong with your motivation. And, yes, trying to provide a useful index (in whatever form) usually requires some human effort and judgment - automatic indexing is somewhat limited in practice. Yes, we all view things differently I guess. > > Eli, too, was trying to be helpful - and he was helpful, no? Yes. I learned from this thread. > > You could also create a page on EmacsWiki to collect such keywords: http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/SiteMap. Then, either Eli or some other Emacs developer might occasionally check what has been added there, or you or someone else could occasionally post here any new entries that are collected there. Emacs Wiki is an incredible collaborative resource, and it's low-key, dumb-easy to use. another one. I'd never seen that. (I'm beginning to feel as Tims RTFM might be more applicabe than usual for me :-) > > As frequenters of this list and emacs-devel@gnu.org will attest, Eli and I don't always agree ;-), but followup to improve the manual indexes is one area (there are others) where I think he does a terrific job. The point here is that your proposal to collect unsuccessful user search attempts, synonyms and the like can be plugged into the existing mechanisms such as manual indexes, and Eli is quite helpful in this regard. I've no issue with feeding back to Eli or the wiki. Maybe like Steve, I find XML more flexible when I want to re-index, so I'm looking at creating an XML version. Currently fighting the ??? (I think it's texi, but unsure) source from http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/emacs.html to generate docbook. That's a good start for me. The html output is SGML, not XHTML, so that's harder, and the --docbook seems to produce an empty file, using http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/~checkout~/texinfo/texinfo/util/gendocs.sh Does it work with the downloaded files? emacs emacs[1..8] It seems to cough and look for a .texi extension? Any suggestions how that might work? I'm trying $ ./gendocs.sh --docbook -o tmp emacs "Emacs" on the gunzipped emacs.info.tar.gz from the same page. > > Wrt difficulty navigating Emacs Info pages: try Icicles - http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/Icicles. Command `icicle-Info-index' (`i' in Info) lets you easily navigate index entries, and command `icicle-Info-goto-node' (`g' in Info) lets you easily browse Info nodes. They let you type a substring or other regexp and zip around all index terms or node names that match, in any order. See http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/Icicles_-_Info_Enhancements. I really don't like | find hard to use, the info style stuff. I guess I've been spoiled with searchable, navigable html over the years I've been using emacs? I've offered to work on a docbook version with a better index, to Eli, offlist. > > And (no relation with Icicles) with Emacs 22, you can use incremental search throughout a manual. If something has no index entry, try repeated `C-s'. Then let help-gnu-emacs know if you think what you were looking for should be added to the index. There's enough in this thread to start a hunt the thimble thread on the wiki! help-gnu-emacs, is that a feedback idea? Does that mean a default emacs Linux installation can get connected without me doing anything? > > Wrt "indexable html pages derived from indexed xml": It's not a bad idea, and it has been discussed before by Emacs development contributors. Info is currently not XML or HTML based, and a move in such a direction is not trivial. But all ideas and implementation and design efforts are appreciated - emacs-devel@gnu.org. Honestly, I'd be far happier working in docbook xml! Now just need to get the shell script working :-) regards -- Dave Pawson XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. http://www.dpawson.co.uk