From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 12:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <707cb938-3722-46eb-a2ef-0211259680e9@default> References: <4XvMn7QQudwuCq-3cSOnqK_gBoHnmblv2--PKi2oupbCsZwaxxrzA2Chwb6LEzzg1TYjAJNboC8lwPgw8VA5IhYUBs-Jly9HfTqPtsgZUHg=@protonmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="18884"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: ndame , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Arthur Miller , Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 02 21:06:50 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jUxTO-0004pD-Ao for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 21:06:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43852 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUxTN-0000v6-Cl for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 15:06:49 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36974) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUxSs-0000CL-5C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 15:06:18 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUxRD-00051z-LY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 15:06:17 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:54990) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUxRD-00051J-57; Sat, 02 May 2020 15:04:35 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 042J34Kp130933; Sat, 2 May 2020 19:04:31 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=XGzpEyXE5NSoSj2A7jzvTEqon+Ie3mVmSL7w8Fe00aU=; b=btLz3NDI/l9Htrl6V8AkG2+nR9RmJMDOvlp24WbPgS/X6byCECDaEcMA5s2msBCjxRr5 O4Pl6MxXm1ZyDJjm2ytQFKY+u9/dJQtuXIG8oklsYJNJ8YrMxhJPj/3l3PY8tnoGtl7Q ieljI1w1pIeMzUu0zBNAD+UMGArh69IiBa8rVuW+B3BENqR129a1ULhWGNXvgDf+Q+lS c6GIcJ2GR+9p0uUvNyrrL9719MyOurX8JBS1i7nZiCN+I/NMSkXW8LCparO8Xwcc6nem l5YVbW8jI1U4i2RhIhdknQKsiQq6pfrcT9LrVrplz9e8ke9z4ARmmVqspJhLjdR4CLed mQ== Original-Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30s0tm1nmy-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 02 May 2020 19:04:31 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 042IwagT034660; Sat, 2 May 2020 19:04:30 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30rxw9sr00-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 02 May 2020 19:04:30 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 042J4UwI004788; Sat, 2 May 2020 19:04:30 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9609 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=807 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005020165 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9609 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1011 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=859 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005020165 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=141.146.126.78; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/02 12:49:53 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.78 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248545 Archived-At: > Question is also do you want those people who are > unvilling to scratch the surface and deep-dive > into Emacs and spend time to learn it and configure > it, to use Emacs? In general, I don't care. "Those people" are really all kinds of people, with different reluctance to scratch the surface. You can do a lot with Emacs without scratching any surface. Do I want someone who doesn't scratch the surface at all to use Emacs? Sure, if they like. But if they don't like, that's OK too. Emacs may not be for everyone, but I've seen all kinds of people, including non-scratchers of all sorts, come to use it productively, and even come to love it. Are there others who will never take advantage of it or appreciate it? Sure. FWIW, I really do NOT think that anyone who's been involved with Emacs development has little care for newbies or for making Emacs flexible and easy to use. The opposite is the case - everyone I've ever see take an interest in Emacs cares very much about usability, discoverability, etc.