Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs? (was: XEmacs)

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs? (was: XEmacs)

[Buchs, Kevin]

I am interested in using the latest spice-mode,
http://spice-mode.4t.com/, released in 2007, but it calls a function
`extent-at'. I understand that (1) that function is specific to XEmacs
and (2) Emacs doesn't have extents, it has
overlays instead.

Kevin Buchs | Senior Engineer | SPPDG | 507-538-5459 |
buchs.kevin@mayo.edu
Mayo Clinic | 200 First Street SW | Rochester, MN 55905 |
http://www.mayo.edu

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Glenn Morris]

"Buchs, Kevin" wrote:

> I am interested in using the latest spice-mode,
> http://spice-mode.4t.com/, released in 2007, but it calls a function
> `extent-at'. I understand that (1) that function is specific to XEmacs
> and (2) Emacs doesn't have extents, it has
> overlays instead.

The file lisp/obsolete/lucid.el has an implementation of extent-at that
may or may not work for you. So try simply

(require 'lucid)

With a 6+ year-old package obviously designed for XEmacs, there may well
be other problems though.

As you can tell from the "obsolete" part, lucid.el has not seen (and
will not see) much attention, so don't be surprised if it doesn't work
right.

XEmacs

[Steven Degutis]

Does anyone actually use it instead of GNU Emacs?

-Steven

Re: XEmacs

[James Freer]

I tired it once and it the splash screen flickered... but that was a
couple of years ago. I don't think it's actually being maintained now.

james

On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 8:25 PM, Steven Degutis <sbdegutis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone actually use it instead of GNU Emacs?
>
> -Steven
>

Re: XEmacs

[Glyn Millington]

James Freer <jessejazza3.uk@gmail.com> writes:

> I tired it once and it the splash screen flickered... but that was a
> couple of years ago. I don't think it's actually being maintained now.

It IS maintained (slowly!) and it has users.

atb



Glyn

Re: XEmacs

[James Freer]

My apologies. I read that somewhere recently... i did say "I don't think..."
Gnu Emacs is much better - i don't know why anyone should want to use Xemacs.

james

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013, Glyn Millington wrote:

> James Freer <jessejazza3.uk@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I tired it once and it the splash screen flickered... but that was a
>> couple of years ago. I don't think it's actually being maintained now.
>
> It IS maintained (slowly!) and it has users.
>
> atb
>
>
>
> Glyn
>
>
>

Re: XEmacs

[glyn.millington]

James Freer <jessejazza3.uk@gmail.com> writes:

> My apologies. I read that somewhere recently... i did say "I don't
> think..."  Gnu Emacs is much better - i don't know why anyone should
> want to use Xemacs.


No worries. Having used Xemacs for years I now use Emacs myself.  There
was a time when Xemacs was way ahead of Emacs but no more.  But Xemacs
still has loyal users.   

I suspect that one  reason for sticking with Xemacs now is lots of little
customizations  and tweaks which don't easily transfer to Gnu Emacs - the
same reason why I wouldn't willingly swap my init.el for yours, because
it would change the way I work.


atb 



Glyn

XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs? (was: XEmacs)

[Bastien]

glyn.millington@gmail.com writes:

> I suspect that one  reason for sticking with Xemacs now is lots of little
> customizations  and tweaks which don't easily transfer to Gnu Emacs - the
> same reason why I wouldn't willingly swap my init.el for yours, because
> it would change the way I work.

I changed the subject -- maybe this thread is an opportunity to get a
list of XEmacs features that would be nice to have in GNU Emacs.  I'm
not thinking of architectural differences, rather of small convenient
commands or options.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Christopher Schmidt]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
> I changed the subject -- maybe this thread is an opportunity to get a
> list of XEmacs features that would be nice to have in GNU Emacs.

XEmacs separates core and lisp packages.  In fact, the code is even
maintained in different repositories.

    https://bitbucket.org/xemacs/

This has tremendous advantages.  I would love to see such a strict
separation in GNU Emacs.

        Christopher

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Steven Degutis]

Advantages such as...?

On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Christopher Schmidt
<christopher@ch.ristopher.com> wrote:
> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
>> I changed the subject -- maybe this thread is an opportunity to get a
>> list of XEmacs features that would be nice to have in GNU Emacs.
>
> XEmacs separates core and lisp packages.  In fact, the code is even
> maintained in different repositories.
>
>     https://bitbucket.org/xemacs/
>
> This has tremendous advantages.  I would love to see such a strict
> separation in GNU Emacs.
>
>         Christopher
>

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Christopher Schmidt]

Steven Degutis <sbdegutis@gmail.com> writes:

> Advantages such as...?

To me, being an ordinary Emacs user, the most striking advantage is the
separation of release cycles.

GNU Emacs is a vivid ecosystem of different packages.  The release
distribution is a static snapshot.

This is not exactly problematic to all these lisp packages which are
mature and do not change much any more.  It is problematic to those
packages which still undergo development.  Consider Org-Mode, for
example.  One is pretty much on its own in terms of community support
and specific bug fixes if one uses the distribution bundled with GNU
Emacs.

Separate release cycles of core and packages and release new versions of
packages when they are considered mature and stable - not when another
core release of Emacs accidentally happens.

This does not necessarily imply any user visible changes or massive
changes to the development infrastructure.  For starters, use the
package.el magic to generate packages from the lisp/-tree at build-time.
Create an ELPA branch which distributes emergency bug/security fixes and
major releases of packages such as Gnus, Org-Mode or CEDET on top (!) of
the regular distribution in the release tarball.

Stephen wrote a retrospective assessment of XEmacs modularization here:

    http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/151146


I have been thinking about this idea for some time now.  I really like
it.  I am convinced that this is a win for both users and developers.
Are there any notable disadvantages?

        Christopher

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs? (was: XEmacs)

[Ian van der Neut]

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Not sure if it's small, but here goes.

In vim, Sublime Text, and others (osx textmate I've been told) you can set
an option that will save the file in the current frame when it loses focus.
While googling to check if Emacs can be configured to have the same
behaviour I found that XEmacs has a 'deselect-frame-hook' that could be
used for this. From the same googling, I found that Emacs would require
something beyond a mere elisp module, but it would have to be implemented
in the core C code itself.

I would really like this option, since I am "frame oriented". I tend to
have quite a few frames open and use "focus follows mouse" which is
available in any Linux desktop. I move my mouse to a terminal window to
type 'make' or run the python/bash/what-have-you script and I would like
emacs to save at least the buffer of the frame I just left and perhaps even
all buffers (but since they wouldn't have focus anymore, they'd already
been saved anyway).

Ian.


On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:

> glyn.millington@gmail.com writes:
>
> > I suspect that one  reason for sticking with Xemacs now is lots of little
> > customizations  and tweaks which don't easily transfer to Gnu Emacs - the
> > same reason why I wouldn't willingly swap my init.el for yours, because
> > it would change the way I work.
>
> I changed the subject -- maybe this thread is an opportunity to get a
> list of XEmacs features that would be nice to have in GNU Emacs.  I'm
> not thinking of architectural differences, rather of small convenient
> commands or options.
>
> --
>  Bastien
>
>


-- 
One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null
word.
-- Excerpt from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's "Time
Enough for Love"

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Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs? (was: XEmacs)

[Ian van der Neut]

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Well, answering my own question. While googling for the
deselect-frame-hook, I found that since I last looked, someone came up with
a solution:

http://datamaskinen.medeltiden.org/emacs-save-buffers-on-window-blur.html(dated
22 January, and last I searched was December... figures)

Just tested it. Works too.

Ian :)


On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Ian van der Neut <ivdneut@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not sure if it's small, but here goes.
>
> In vim, Sublime Text, and others (osx textmate I've been told) you can set
> an option that will save the file in the current frame when it loses focus.
> While googling to check if Emacs can be configured to have the same
> behaviour I found that XEmacs has a 'deselect-frame-hook' that could be
> used for this. From the same googling, I found that Emacs would require
> something beyond a mere elisp module, but it would have to be implemented
> in the core C code itself.
>
> I would really like this option, since I am "frame oriented". I tend to
> have quite a few frames open and use "focus follows mouse" which is
> available in any Linux desktop. I move my mouse to a terminal window to
> type 'make' or run the python/bash/what-have-you script and I would like
> emacs to save at least the buffer of the frame I just left and perhaps even
> all buffers (but since they wouldn't have focus anymore, they'd already
> been saved anyway).
>
> Ian.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
>
>> glyn.millington@gmail.com writes:
>>
>> > I suspect that one  reason for sticking with Xemacs now is lots of
>> little
>> > customizations  and tweaks which don't easily transfer to Gnu Emacs -
>> the
>> > same reason why I wouldn't willingly swap my init.el for yours, because
>> > it would change the way I work.
>>
>> I changed the subject -- maybe this thread is an opportunity to get a
>> list of XEmacs features that would be nice to have in GNU Emacs.  I'm
>> not thinking of architectural differences, rather of small convenient
>> commands or options.
>>
>> --
>>  Bastien
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null
> word.
> -- Excerpt from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's
> "Time Enough for Love"
>



-- 
One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null
word.
-- Excerpt from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's "Time
Enough for Love"

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Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs? (was: XEmacs)

[Ian van der Neut]

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On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Ian van der Neut <ivdneut@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, answering my own question. While googling for the
> deselect-frame-hook, I found that since I last looked, someone came up with
> a solution:
>
> http://datamaskinen.medeltiden.org/emacs-save-buffers-on-window-blur.html(dated 22 January, and last I searched was December... figures)
>
> Just tested it. Works too.
>

But not with emacsclient :( but perhaps there's enough hints in there to
fix that.

Ian.
-- 
One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null
word.
-- Excerpt from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's "Time
Enough for Love"

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Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Bastien]

Ian van der Neut <ivdneut@gmail.com> writes:

> But not with emacsclient :( but perhaps there's enough hints in there
> to fix that.

You could use `select-frame-hook' and add a custom that saves
all buffers from all windows that are not currently active?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Ian van der Neut]

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On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:

> Ian van der Neut <ivdneut@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > But not with emacsclient :( but perhaps there's enough hints in there
> > to fix that.
>
> You could use `select-frame-hook' and add a custom that saves
> all buffers from all windows that are not currently active?
>
>
(sorry, initial reply sent to Bastien only by accident)

But that wouldn't work if I move the mouse to a non-emacs window am I right?

Ian.

-- 
One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null
word.
-- Excerpt from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's "Time
Enough for Love"

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Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Bastien]

Hi Ivan,

Ian van der Neut <ivdneut@gmail.com> writes:

> But that wouldn't work if I move the mouse to a non-emacs window am I
> right?

Right.  Then we'd better off with an idle timer that save window
buffers when no window is currently active?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Alan Mackenzie]

Christopher Schmidt <christopher@ch.ristopher.com> wrote:
> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
>> I changed the subject -- maybe this thread is an opportunity to get a
>> list of XEmacs features that would be nice to have in GNU Emacs.

> XEmacs separates core and lisp packages.  In fact, the code is even
> maintained in different repositories.

>    https://bitbucket.org/xemacs/

> This has tremendous advantages.  I would love to see such a strict
> separation in GNU Emacs.

This may have advantages.  It also has disadvantages.  It is much more
difficult to set up than Emacs's simplicity.  For example, during
installation, the user must edit the make file to say where the packages
are going to live.  For developers, the source and installed versions of
the packages are rigidly separated, making testing more awkward.

>        Christopher

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Dan Espen]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> glyn.millington@gmail.com writes:
>
>> I suspect that one  reason for sticking with Xemacs now is lots of little
>> customizations  and tweaks which don't easily transfer to Gnu Emacs - the
>> same reason why I wouldn't willingly swap my init.el for yours, because
>> it would change the way I work.
>
> I changed the subject -- maybe this thread is an opportunity to get a
> list of XEmacs features that would be nice to have in GNU Emacs.  I'm
> not thinking of architectural differences, rather of small convenient
> commands or options.

List of things I miss from XEmacs:

1. 3d effect for mode line

2. Easy customization for sounds:

 (setq sound-alist nil)
 (let ((default-directory (concat data-directory "sounds")))
   (load-sound-file "slap.au"      'slap 50) ;new
   (load-sound-file "drum-beep.au" 'drum)
   (load-sound-file "quiet-beep.au"        'quiet)
   (load-sound-file "bass-snap.au" 'bass 75) ;was 80
   (load-sound-file "whip.au"      'whip 50) ;was 70
   (load-sound-file "hammer.au"    'hammer 50) ;new
   (load-sound-file "yeep.au"      'yeep 50) ;was 100
   (load-sound-file "drip.au"      'drip 50) ;new
   (load-sound-file "ding.au"      'paren 50)) ;new
 (setq sound-alist
       (append 
        '((default :sound hammer) ;was bass
          (undefined-key :sound    drum)
          (undefined-click :sound drum)
          (command-error :sound bass)
          (no-completion :sound    drip) ;was whip
          (y-or-n-p        :sound  slap) ;was quiet
          (yes-or-no-p :sound      yeep) ;was quiet
          (isearch-failed :sound drum :volume 70) ;was quiet
          (isearch-quit :sound     yeep) ;was quiet
          (auto-save-error :sound whip :volume 75)) ;was vol 100
        sound-alist)))

For me not even close to a reason to stay with XEmacs.

-- 
Dan Espen

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Bastien]

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> For me not even close to a reason to stay with XEmacs.

Yep.  I forgot to say I'm more interested in those features
that make people stay with XEmacs :)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Glenn Morris]

Bastien wrote:

> I forgot to say I'm more interested in those features that make people
> stay with XEmacs :)

The people who could answer that are presumably not reading
help-gnu-emacs (a mailing list specifically for GNU Emacs).

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Dan Espen]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> Bastien wrote:
>
>> I forgot to say I'm more interested in those features that make people
>> stay with XEmacs :)
>
> The people who could answer that are presumably not reading
> help-gnu-emacs (a mailing list specifically for GNU Emacs).

Yep, what we have here are reformed XEmacs users.

Actually, I used Emacs for many years.
Jumped to XEmacs when Emacs sunk into a funk and JWZ brought his
considerable talents to bear, then jumped back when Emacs caught up
and surpassed XEmacs.

I don't think we're going to see a lot of reasons to use XEmacs.
I suggested 2 and got my list pared down to 1.

-- 
Dan Espen

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[rusi]

On Apr 30, 11:48 pm, Glenn Morris <r...@gnu.org> wrote:
> Bastien wrote:
> > I forgot to say I'm more interested in those features that make people
> > stay with XEmacs :)
>
> The people who could answer that are presumably not reading
> help-gnu-emacs (a mailing list specifically for GNU Emacs).

APlus mode only works with Xemacs not gnu-emacs.
I had put up some of my hacks for making it work in gnu-emacs
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AplInDebian…

Have little idea if its been of any use.

The correct way to do it is to make a specific latin-like encoding for
Aplus.
I looked at the code but was a bit out of depth with the unicode stuff

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Tassilo Horn]

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:

> List of things I miss from XEmacs:
>
> 1. 3d effect for mode line

Isn't that the Box attribute applicable to all Emacs face, not just
mode-line?

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Dan Espen]

Tassilo Horn <tsdh@gnu.org> writes:

> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> List of things I miss from XEmacs:
>>
>> 1. 3d effect for mode line
>
> Isn't that the Box attribute applicable to all Emacs face, not just
> mode-line?

It might be if I could figure out the syntax for set-face-attribute...

-- 
Dan Espen

RE: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Drew Adams]

> > Isn't that the Box attribute applicable to all Emacs face, not just
> > mode-line?
> 
> It might be if I could figure out the syntax for set-face-attribute...

You don't need to.

M-x customize-face RET mode-line RET

Look at and play with `Box around text', in particular its `Style' and `Width'
settings when value `Box' is used.  `Width' is what gives you a greater or
smaller 3D effect.

Customize shows you the effect of your changes as soon as you choose `State' >
`Set for current session'.  Fiddle and set, fiddle and set.

Much easier than trying to parse the `set-face-attribute' doc or code and then
experiment with Lisp sexps.  And if you then want to see what the corresponding
Lisp looks like for the option value, choose `State' > `Show Lisp Expression'.

IMHO, too many people think that not using Customize somehow makes them heavy
Lispers, and that using Customize somehow makes them Emacs wimps or newbies.

This not to argue that the Customize UI is wonderful or particularly appealing
(ugh!).  The point is that it is your friend, and a wise Lisper takes advantage
of it.

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Dan Espen]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> > Isn't that the Box attribute applicable to all Emacs face, not just
>> > mode-line?
>> 
>> It might be if I could figure out the syntax for set-face-attribute...
>
> You don't need to.
>
> M-x customize-face RET mode-line RET
>
> Look at and play with `Box around text', in particular its `Style' and `Width'
> settings when value `Box' is used.  `Width' is what gives you a greater or
> smaller 3D effect.
>
> Customize shows you the effect of your changes as soon as you choose `State' >
> `Set for current session'.  Fiddle and set, fiddle and set.
>
> Much easier than trying to parse the `set-face-attribute' doc or code and then
> experiment with Lisp sexps.  And if you then want to see what the corresponding
> Lisp looks like for the option value, choose `State' > `Show Lisp Expression'.
>
> IMHO, too many people think that not using Customize somehow makes them heavy
> Lispers, and that using Customize somehow makes them Emacs wimps or newbies.
>
> This not to argue that the Customize UI is wonderful or particularly appealing
> (ugh!).  The point is that it is your friend, and a wise Lisper takes advantage
> of it.

My problem with customize is finding what I want.
Given customize-face then mode-line I'm good.
Starting thru the menubar, I get totally lost.

Anyway, Emacs wins again!

Emacs is now sporting XEmacs style 3d mode lines and life is good.

Not sure if I'll apply this to inactive mode lines, maybe they should be
sunken or just flat like they are by default.

Thanks!

-- 
Dan Espen

RE: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Drew Adams]

> My problem with customize is finding what I want.
> Given customize-face then mode-line I'm good.
> Starting thru the menubar, I get totally lost.

Good point.  Customize is not much of a browser.

To find things in Customize I take advantage of Icicles.  But you can get almost
as much help in this case from `M-x customize-apropos-faces RET mode-line RET'.

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Stefan Monnier]

> Emacs is now sporting XEmacs style 3d mode lines and life is good.

"now" as in "since Emacs-21"?


        Stefan

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[J. David Boyd]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Emacs is now sporting XEmacs style 3d mode lines and life is good.
>
> "now" as in "since Emacs-21"?
>
>
>         Stefan


I 'thought' we had 3d mode lines, glad to know my eyes aren't crazy....

RE: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Drew Adams]

> >> Emacs is now sporting XEmacs style 3d mode lines and life is good.
> > since Emacs-21
>
> I 'thought' we had 3d mode lines, glad to know my eyes aren't 
> crazy....

Yes, and if you look the right way at the mode line, a SIRDS T. rex or two will
pop out at you.  Quite a popular feature back in the 90s.

Re: XEmacs feature missing in GNU Emacs?

[Dan Espen]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Emacs is now sporting XEmacs style 3d mode lines and life is good.
>
> "now" as in "since Emacs-21"?

24.1.1.1

For me, "now" was right then at my computer.

-- 
Dan Espen