From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "B. T. Raven" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: usability problem of emacs describe-mode Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:48:04 -0600 Message-ID: <6LadnYjfqeu95DnUnZ2dnUVZ_trinZ2d@sysmatrix.net> References: <76fcf833-ad89-44f2-b227-e18295317ca2@p13g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <38ednbtv0uzbrDnUnZ2dnUVZ_heWnZ2d@sysmatrix.net> <06245ba5-3e82-4e9a-94c9-a2d1547e2a09@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1235518858 7412 80.91.229.12 (24 Feb 2009 23:40:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:40:58 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 25 00:42:13 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Lc6ub-00013F-PZ for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:42:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35596 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Lc6tH-0002uU-6y for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:40:43 -0500 Original-Path: news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local01.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.sysmatrix.net!news.sysmatrix.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:47:59 -0600 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help In-Reply-To: <06245ba5-3e82-4e9a-94c9-a2d1547e2a09@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com> Original-Lines: 50 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.73.131.99 Original-X-Trace: sv3-9hpdDlz/4WphzjJ05YcHiTnwkOR4NP47uZQbnWTn4HyO3cot9HyORIiKZexztBpyAjTNltoFY22YGw8!WQftlyfZa8Ff98G1g55E4VxpfPDRGKggVY7Ki6AkIY6DkY4H53yiyX/1jpKwj7oGELcNQ5Ijd6VL!UzAhvtmPp1sl/q6jBygKseJwmmHC5g== Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@sysmatrix.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.39 Original-Xref: news.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:167038 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:62338 Archived-At: Xah Lee wrote: > Xah Lee wrote: > • Usability Problems Of Emacs's Mode Documentation > http://xahlee.org/emacs/modernization_mode_doc.html > > On Feb 24, 9:41 am, "B. T. Raven" wrote: >> Did you look at Andreas' defun? > > The issue is a criticism, not about how can i do this or that. I was going to say, I'll take that as a no, but I see that you have responded to his posting, after a fashion. > > imagine Roger Ebert gives 2 thumbs down on a movie, and you say: “why > don't you watch other movies instead?”. Metaphors be with you, Luke. > >> There is a constant tension between an application's power and usability >> and the default behavior of Emacs seems to me to manage the >> combinatorial explosion of functionalities better than what you have >> proposed, with a few exceptions. > > You have to give reasons Raven. No, I only have to give testimony. You said that an Emacs feature that I had never bothered with before was "really unusable." After spending 5 or 10 minutes with it I find that it is eminently usable, but maybe not by your fictional novice user who has experience only with MS Windows programs. Who cares? What's the point of nitpicking over Emacs minutiae? Creative people who aren't satisfied with the way Emacs handles certain tasks don't endlessly whine about it; they make something, which, if the powers that be think can be elegantly incorporated into a future version, is seamlessly added. Instead you sound like you want to stage a coup or something after your sowing of discontent reaches a critical mass. > > Let's focus on this issue, let's not generalized or philosophize. The issue is still so murky that the only sensible thing to do is philosophize until we know what we are talking about. > > Xah > ∑ http://xahlee.org/ > > ☄