From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: update intro to Emacs Lisp programming Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 20:20:18 +0900 Message-ID: <6FC095B3-5F73-4E17-B2EB-BE9F98E2009E@gmail.com> References: <80DB6796-41FE-4090-B1DD-BF5AE3F4D0CF@scratch.space> <83zi16ofny.fsf@gnu.org> <6A8BB190-FA64-4697-AFDA-EFBEB4886230@scratch.space> <90addb33-6797-b203-4a67-a2a6c201bd81@cs.ucla.edu> <97CEED22-57CE-4715-9239-1557F38AD994@gmail.com> <376AD40E-4EEC-4DC6-ADDA-4E594EAFE1DE@gmail.com> <87bmddvvj8.fsf@mbork.pl> <87in7juhc6.fsf@mbork.pl> <5C62F3FC-7B77-43E5-A907-4060DA0E0219@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FD0E1903-1B57-4CC2-98CA-90D3813D44DF" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1526987945 23500 195.159.176.226 (22 May 2018 11:19:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 11:19:05 +0000 (UTC) To: Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 22 13:19:00 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fL5Jk-0005wV-Ae for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 22 May 2018 13:19:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54899 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fL5Lr-0007mQ-3z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 22 May 2018 07:21:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48132) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fL5LD-0007mA-AZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 May 2018 07:20:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fL5L7-00051l-B6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 May 2018 07:20:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22c]:45262) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fL5L7-00051P-2b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 May 2018 07:20:25 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id c10-v6so8607887pfi.12 for ; Tue, 22 May 2018 04:20:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=CYoHgFDDjnWghNEbm74odugglaZaNss3akpgvZZoobg=; b=cNctL3EZxs0tsqVDLQZYWD4VPRFMz801f3I8av0YCz7/6Swf1t4RR/4whJG7GmHCv2 KYfpt9XHKwJ94rG9I+WYV0K22IU26OKD6b2J2kWvLHZ5s4bGt372Kf3Ce8mmNyv5sTs9 LYDoRAb76eoeu6LI+x+C4CzQ0ixcY13A7UaWeI1CD72L6FaakVBF5EjIa0KWUMcRtI5G DpmTgM4T/GwVSTBX+0pEVeeHgqbwu7MCFqABQo9M+E3uc6Fhz3cQymixJYBNvz8NE/m0 h4ysB618DY/I7SkA4vdqBvS5xWszE8dkEC39U+bKLH2KiwfE7fWKWW6o+YmNOoGepYId LUbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=CYoHgFDDjnWghNEbm74odugglaZaNss3akpgvZZoobg=; b=YwrUiruWDhtLZj/zHOFtQDNrIvUjk9TV4bXd1Wl8uJlghNk+qVeqNw5EUb39Xq9XeJ l5HAz47XzHzeXsJAKpGvYu1FjPNZOonT/vTMRqsSbVRIRrO29XvUM3yuEoRsNHXv/BsS 3zqd/B2sKas678KlstanKpZ/Guz/fc3TYyxvnu2AUwnUEwp7F05LW7qTK+ecE0GCkUJV 8Hx4XuWY7eqx+CzuYSouz5LZIyKq9NuvkdfQK9lR2Uf6cNemvFDNg05wbB0DY8YPAo0A 0KiC9Jtlaz4NT2q/5mv23DIW3pKLlnl/ygudcXIZkMFlF1dD/GupFYgyByHIO2n1HA94 i8ew== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwcPkjOpPSg62NRGKeHBansK4W8nckXusDPFFlT7sXjQe3dItzGR qZO4Fas3K1NDfnrsMEpqwJvNqw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqVMp2pLu6ZYmVb8sx688movGe6LyDe6ZHw6snfiea21Pgxkk+JQSpRUvqiCslwLqSRMS2dNQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:6e84:: with SMTP id j126-v6mr12361979pgc.239.1526988023268; Tue, 22 May 2018 04:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.7] (pl31219.ag0304.nttpc.ne.jp. [111.89.224.243]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g20-v6sm26866043pfi.163.2018.05.22.04.20.21 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 May 2018 04:20:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:225549 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_FD0E1903-1B57-4CC2-98CA-90D3813D44DF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On May 21, 2018, at 13:11, Richard Stallman wrote: >=20 > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >=20 >> What I was saying was that in the 80's-90's, ie before computing >> became widespread thanks to common access to the internet, books >> needed to be self contained. >=20 > The Emacs Lisp intro should still be self-contained. Indeed. But since users are likely to read it inside Emacs, as a PDF or = as HTML, linking the document to the Lisp Reference or even, where = necessary to the Emacs Manual, would provide the learner with a better = experience than the current state of the introduction (as I wrote in a = different mail, the information in the Lisp Reference is more = informative than the help strings in the function documentation). > It should not depend on reference to anything across the internet, > since the person reading may not have an internet connection at the > time of coming across the reference. Wen people are reading printed = copies, > the book should not say, "To understand the next section, first read > something else on your computer". But we should assume that a person who learns Emacs Lisp has access to a = machine where Emacs is installed. Thus, providing links to the Lisp = Reference or the Emacs Manual should not be an issue. Jean-Christophe Helary ----------------------------------------------- http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune --Apple-Mail=_FD0E1903-1B57-4CC2-98CA-90D3813D44DF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On May 21, 2018, at 13:11, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> = wrote:

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please = consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the = US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's = example. ]]]

What I was saying was that in the 80's-90's, ie before = computing
became widespread thanks to common access to the = internet, books
needed to be self contained.

The Emacs Lisp intro should still = be self-contained.

Indeed. But since users are likely to read it = inside Emacs, as a PDF or as HTML, linking the document to the Lisp = Reference or even, where necessary to the Emacs Manual, would provide = the learner with a better experience than the current state of the = introduction (as I wrote in a different mail, the information in the = Lisp Reference is more informative than the help strings in the function = documentation).

It should not depend on = reference to anything across the internet,
since the = person reading may not have an internet connection at the
time of coming across the reference.  Wen people are = reading printed copies,
the book should not say, "To = understand the next section, first read
something else on = your computer".

But we should assume that a person who learns = Emacs Lisp has access to a machine where Emacs is installed. Thus, = providing links to the Lisp Reference or the Emacs Manual should not be = an issue.

=
Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune


= --Apple-Mail=_FD0E1903-1B57-4CC2-98CA-90D3813D44DF--