From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: `C-b' is backward-char, `left' is left-char - why? Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 13:40:37 -0700 Message-ID: <6F4054004B154CFB8E2753172D316C13@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1306528856 13725 80.91.229.12 (27 May 2011 20:40:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 20:40:56 +0000 (UTC) To: Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 27 22:40:52 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QQ3px-0008Vo-7N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 May 2011 22:40:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52640 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QQ3pw-0006NU-Q5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 May 2011 16:40:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53302) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QQ3pu-0006NF-8X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2011 16:40:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QQ3pt-0005uU-42 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2011 16:40:46 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:59202) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QQ3ps-0005uG-VB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 May 2011 16:40:45 -0400 Original-Received: from rtcsinet22.oracle.com (rtcsinet22.oracle.com [66.248.204.30]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p4RKefmQ028194 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 27 May 2011 20:40:43 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by rtcsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p4RKeeLO006905 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 May 2011 20:40:41 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt018.oracle.com (abhmt018.oracle.com [141.146.116.27]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p4RKeYVn015734 for ; Fri, 27 May 2011 15:40:34 -0500 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.51.66) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 27 May 2011 13:40:34 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcwcrlWV1ECxWJ7fSL+rYGLRNEeH2g== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6090 X-Source-IP: rtcsinet22.oracle.com [66.248.204.30] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4DE00C4B.0099:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.121 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:139773 Archived-At: I'm curious. Why is it a good idea that `C-b' and `left' are no longer bound to the same command? I'm not asking about the difference; I can see that from the doc strings. I'm wondering why we've broken their longstanding correspondence. Lots of Emacs and Emacs Lisp does things based on which commands are used. It's sometimes not enough that two commands behave the same or similarly. If they are different commands then some code will likely not DTRT - some code will at least not treat them the same. Even if the bidi stuff specifies the same behavior for `backward-char' and `left-char' whenever there is in fact no bidirectional stuff present, that does not mean that Emacs will behave the same for these two keys, simply because they are bound to different commands. As a trivial example, if you have code that remaps or uses `substitute-key-definition' with `backward-char', it will no longer work for `left' as well as `C-b'. Why not make bidi optional? Why not have a minor mode for the bidi stuff, and only bind keys such as `left' to commands that are specific to bidi when that mode is turned on? Why make such an invasive, top-level change to Emacs? I understand that bidi is a great addition to Emacs and will be welcomed by folks around the world. I also realize that it is complex to implement. But some of us will rarely, if ever, use it. A priori, it doesn't seem like a great idea to be changing basic default key bindings. I say "a priori" because I would like to understand why this is necessary or a good idea. I'm not claiming it's a bad idea and should be undone. Chalk it up mainly to surprise, if you like: I was surprised to see that `C-h w backward-char' did not list `left' as well as `C-b'.