custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[David Reitter]

There's a bug in the initialization customization variables when this initialization is delayed using `custom-initialize-delay' function.

These get init'd during dumping rather than at run-time.  The documentation suggests that it's supposed to happen at run-time.

A symptom of this is that `send-mail-function' is always set to `sendmail-send-it', because `window-system' is not available during dumping.
This is a regression compared to Emacs 22, where this mechanism worked.

I think the correct fix is to not clear `custom-delayed-init-variables' while dumping.  Possibly, one would want to not initialize the variables at all (see also the comment in `custom-initialize-delay' w.r.t. evaluating value).   The patch below just implements the variant with the smaller change in behavior.


diff --git a/lisp/startup.el b/lisp/startup.el
index 87f1a00..0c9b190 100644
--- a/lisp/startup.el
+++ b/lisp/startup.el
@@ -913,10 +913,12 @@ opening the first frame (e.g. open a connection to an X server).")
   ;; Re-evaluate predefined variables whose initial value depends on
   ;; the runtime context.
   (mapc 'custom-reevaluate-setting
-        ;; Initialize them in the same order they were loaded, in case there
-        ;; are dependencies between them.
-        (prog1 (nreverse custom-delayed-init-variables)
-          (setq custom-delayed-init-variables nil)))
+	;; Initialize them in the same order they were loaded, in case there
+	;; are dependencies between them.
+	(prog1 (nreverse custom-delayed-init-variables)
+	    (unless (or (member (nth 3 command-line-args) '("dump" "bootstrap"))
+	      (member (nth 4 command-line-args) '("dump" "bootstrap")))
+	      (setq custom-delayed-init-variables nil))))
 
   (normal-erase-is-backspace-setup-frame)
 

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Glenn Morris]

David Reitter wrote:

> There's a bug

Bugs reported to the bug list are much less likely to be
forgotten/overlooked...

>  in the initialization customization variables when this
>  initialization is delayed using `custom-initialize-delay' function.
>
> These get init'd during dumping rather than at run-time.

This can't be the whole story, because this works (current trunk and
23.1 on GNU/Linux):

emacs -Q
C-h v temporary-file-directory     -> "/tmp/"

TMPDIR=/var/tmp/ emacs -Q
C-h v temporary-file-directory     -> "/var/tmp/"

> A symptom of this is that `send-mail-function' is always set to
> `sendmail-send-it', because `window-system' is not available during
> dumping.

I think this is specific to send-mail-function, as the only (?) user
of custom-initialize-delay where the defining file is not preloaded,
but rather the defcustom is autoloaded. There is already some attempt
at a manual workaround for that in sendmail.el, but I guess it doesn't
work. If the definition of send-mail-function is moved to startup.el,
it works fine.


send-mail-function's default value probably shouldn't be based on
window-system anyway, now that X and tty frames can be mixed (though I
don't know if this works on Windows/Nextstep). I think
mailclient-send-it itself should check window-system and call
sendmail-send-it if it is nil.

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[David Reitter]

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Yes, send-mail-function is the only delayed-init defcustom that's autoloaded.

On Feb 23, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Glenn Morris wrote:

> send-mail-function's default value probably shouldn't be based on
> window-system anyway, now that X and tty frames can be mixed (though I
> don't know if this works on Windows/Nextstep). I think
> mailclient-send-it itself should check window-system and call
> sendmail-send-it if it is nil.

I don't think that this would be a user-friendly solution. 
It should be `initial-window-system', not `window-system', however.  I find that `browse-url' is not useful on remote emacs sessions via SSH.

You may recall that the default value is different on GNU/Linux because we expect users to configure their Emacs mail system explicitly (e.g., with a working sender address), or that the `browse-url' (with a mailto://) mechanism is less likely to produce the desired effects (haven't tested this).   Also, an older OS X version didn't correctly run `sendmail'.

The underlying reason for all of this is independent of the system - firewalls block outgoing mail traffic, and mail servers refuse to deliver mail from dial-up IPs.
I noticed all of this because a user complained that his bug reports didn't go through (but were silently swallowed).

And no, X/TTY mixing doesn't work on NS. 


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Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:04:33 -0500
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> send-mail-function's default value probably shouldn't be based on
> window-system anyway, now that X and tty frames can be mixed (though I
> don't know if this works on Windows/Nextstep).

On Windows, it doesn't currently work to mix tty and GUI frames in the
same session (because no one has figured out how to do that).

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:04:33 -0500
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> send-mail-function's default value probably shouldn't be based on
> window-system anyway, now that X and tty frames can be mixed (though I
> don't know if this works on Windows/Nextstep). I think
> mailclient-send-it itself should check window-system and call
> sendmail-send-it if it is nil.

Could this be the reason for Bug#5299, per chance?

Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?

RE: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> > send-mail-function's default value probably shouldn't be based on
> > window-system anyway, now that X and tty frames can be 
> > mixed (though I don't know if this works on Windows/Nextstep). I think
> > mailclient-send-it itself should check window-system and call
> > sendmail-send-it if it is nil.
> 
> Could this be the reason for Bug#5299, per chance?
> 
> Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
> send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?

Nope (just tried it).

As Lennart and I have said, there was some Windows-specific code that did this:

. When you hit C-c C-c, it popped up the mail client (in my case, Outlook) with
a new message window.

. The message was pre-address to the right bug list (pretest or bugs). It had
the Subject filled out.

. But the message body did not have the body that you entered in Emacs. Instead,
it had this text (still does, for Emacs 22):

  *** E-Mail body has been placed on clipboard, please paste them here! *** 

All you had to do then was use `C-v' to paste the body you wrote in place of
that "***...***" text.

HTH - Drew

P.S. I barely noticed your question to me. I haven't been reading this thread.

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Glenn Morris]

David Reitter wrote:

> And no, X/TTY mixing doesn't work on NS. 

Then it isn't an issue. But if it is ever implemented and people start
using eg emacs --daemon, send-mail-function will be incorrectly
initialized.

Anyway, the following seems to work:


*** lisp/mail/sendmail.el   2010-01-17 23:34:53 +0000
--- lisp/mail/sendmail.el   2010-02-24 01:13:01 +0000
***************
*** 170,175 ****
--- 170,177 ----
    :initialize 'custom-initialize-delay
    :group 'sendmail)
  
+ ;;;###autoload(custom-initialize-delay 'send-mail-function nil)
+ 
  ;;;###autoload
  (defcustom mail-header-separator (purecopy "--text follows this line--")
    "Line used to separate headers from text in messages being composed."

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Glenn Morris]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
> send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?

It's message-send-mail-function (the variable) that one needs to set
nowadays.

The function message-send-mail-function may also need some adjustment
for Windows and Macs to prefer mailclient more strongly than it
currently does.

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[David Reitter]

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On Feb 23, 2010, at 8:14 PM, Glenn Morris wrote:
> + ;;;###autoload(custom-initialize-delay 'send-mail-function nil)
> + 
>  ;;;###autoload
>  (defcustom mail-header-separator (purecopy "--text follows this line--")

That's a smaller change and maybe the right thing to do right now, but I'd still like to understand why you accept the initialization mechanism in startup.el to init only at dump time and not at run-time in the case of send-mail-function. That's what seemed to be the real problem.  Adding code to loaddefs.el seems like a workaround.

Btw. I considered a solution like yours, but I didn't figure you could do this sort of thing with the ###autoload cookies.  I thought, from a comment in autoload.el, that they were restricted to defcustoms and defuns.

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Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: <david.reitter@gmail.com>, <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:08:13 -0800
> 
> > Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
> > send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?
> 
> Nope (just tried it).

How did it fail?  What happened?

> As Lennart and I have said, there was some Windows-specific code that did this:
> 
> . When you hit C-c C-c, it popped up the mail client (in my case, Outlook) with
> a new message window.
> 
> . The message was pre-address to the right bug list (pretest or bugs). It had
> the Subject filled out.
> 
> . But the message body did not have the body that you entered in Emacs. Instead,
> it had this text (still does, for Emacs 22):
> 
>   *** E-Mail body has been placed on clipboard, please paste them here! *** 
> 
> All you had to do then was use `C-v' to paste the body you wrote in place of
> that "***...***" text.

That's what mailclient-send-it is supposed to do, AFAIK.

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: david.reitter@gmail.com,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:09:32 -0500
> 
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
> > send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?
> 
> It's message-send-mail-function (the variable) that one needs to set
> nowadays.

Drew, could you please try that and tell the results?

RE: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> > Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
> > send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?
> 
> It's message-send-mail-function (the variable) that one needs to set
> nowadays.
> 
> The function message-send-mail-function may also need some adjustment
> for Windows and Macs to prefer mailclient more strongly than it
> currently does.

OK, I tried that too:
(setq message-send-mail-function 'mailclient-send-it)

Same thing:

shell-command-to-string: Searching for program: no such file or directory,
/bin/bash

This is nothing like what it used to do, sadly. Just try Emacs 22.[123] or 23.1
on Windows, `emacs -Q', no changes. Works fine.

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: david.reitter@gmail.com,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:09:32 -0500
> 
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
> > send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?
> 
> It's message-send-mail-function (the variable) that one needs to set
> nowadays.

Drew, could you please try that and tell the results?

Alternatively, set mail-user-agent to sendmail-user-agent and _then_
set send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it.  I think the latter
emulates more closely what you had in Emacs 22.

RE: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> > > Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
> > > send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?
> > 
> > Nope (just tried it).
> 
> How did it fail?  What happened?

See the bug report or the other message I just sent replying to this thread.

> > As Lennart and I have said, there was some Windows-specific 
> > code that did this:
> > 
> > . When you hit C-c C-c, it popped up the mail client (in my 
> >   case, Outlook) with a new message window.
> > 
> > . The message was pre-address to the right bug list 
> >   (pretest or bugs). It had the Subject filled out.
> > 
> > . But the message body did not have the body that you 
> >   entered in Emacs. Instead, it had this text (still does,
> >   for Emacs 22):
> > 
> >   *** E-Mail body has been placed on clipboard, please 
> >   paste them here! *** 
> > 
> > All you had to do then was use `C-v' to paste the body you 
> > wrote in place of that "***...***" text.
> 
> That's what mailclient-send-it is supposed to do, AFAIK.

Well something has clearly been broken since 23.1.

RE: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> > > Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
> > > send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?
> > 
> > It's message-send-mail-function (the variable) that one needs to set
> > nowadays.
> 
> Drew, could you please try that and tell the results?
> 
> Alternatively, set mail-user-agent to sendmail-user-agent and _then_
> set send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it.  I think the latter
> emulates more closely what you had in Emacs 22.

We have a winner!

Yep, that's the ticket. It restores the Emacs 23.1 (and Emacs 22) behavior.

Thx - Drew

RE: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> Yep, that's the ticket. It restores the Emacs 23.1 (and Emacs 
> 22) behavior.

(Needless to say, I hope, that this should be the out-of-the-box behavior, as
before. Users should not need to set such variables themselves.)

bug#5299: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Stefan Monnier]

[ Bringing this back to #5299 where it belongs ]

>> > Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
>> > send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?
>> 
>> It's message-send-mail-function (the variable) that one needs to set
>> nowadays.
>> 
>> The function message-send-mail-function may also need some adjustment
>> for Windows and Macs to prefer mailclient more strongly than it
>> currently does.

> OK, I tried that too:
> (setq message-send-mail-function 'mailclient-send-it)

> Same thing:

> shell-command-to-string: Searching for program: no such file or directory,
> /bin/bash

Can you get a backtrace of that? [with (setq debug-on-error t) and if
that doesn't work with additionally (setq debug-ignored-errors nil) and/or
maybe even (setq debug-on-signal t)]

Also, can you explain why "bash" shows up here?  Do you have the envvar
SHELL set to "/bin/bash" somehow?


        Stefan

bug#5299: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> [ Bringing this back to #5299 where it belongs ]
> 
> > (setq message-send-mail-function 'mailclient-send-it)
> >
> > shell-command-to-string: Searching for program: no such 
> > file or directory, /bin/bash
> 
> Can you get a backtrace of that?
> [with (setq debug-on-error t) and if
> that doesn't work with additionally (setq 
> debug-ignored-errors nil) and/or
> maybe even (setq debug-on-signal t)]
> 
> Also, can you explain why "bash" shows up here?  Do you have 
> the envvar SHELL set to "/bin/bash" somehow?

Yes, in my Windows settings (since I use Cygwin).

With those 3 variables set, emacs -Q:

Help > Send Bug Report

Type "ffffffffff" as the subject.

Get this backtrace immediately:

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (file-error "Cannot open load file" "idna")
  require(idna)
  (condition-case nil (require (quote idna)) (file-error))
  (and (condition-case nil (require ...) (file-error)) (mm-coding-system-p
(quote utf-8)) (executable-find idna-program) (string= (idna-to-ascii
"räksmörgås") "xn--rksmrgs-5wao1o") t)
  eval((and (condition-case nil (require ...) (file-error)) (mm-coding-system-p
(quote utf-8)) (executable-find idna-program) (string= (idna-to-ascii
"räksmörgås") "xn--rksmrgs-5wao1o") t))
  custom-initialize-reset(message-use-idna (and (condition-case nil (require
...) (file-error)) (mm-coding-system-p (quote utf-8)) (executable-find
idna-program) (string= (idna-to-ascii "räksmörgås") "xn--rksmrgs-5wao1o") t))
  custom-declare-variable(message-use-idna (and (condition-case nil (require
...) (file-error)) (mm-coding-system-p (quote utf-8)) (executable-find
idna-program) (string= (idna-to-ascii "räksmörgås") "xn--rksmrgs-5wao1o") t)
("c:/Emacs-23-1-92/lisp/gnus/message.elc" . 59102) :version "22.1" :group
message-headers :link (custom-manual "(message)IDNA") :type (choice (const :tag
"Ask" ask) (const :tag "Never" nil) (const :tag "Always" t)))
  message-mail("bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" "23.1.92; fffffffff" nil nil nil nil nil)
  compose-mail("bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" "23.1.92; fffffffff")
  report-emacs-bug("fffffffff" [134217786 40 103 101 116 101 110 118 32 34 83 72
69 76 76 34 41 return (help-echo #<frame emacs@DRADAMS-LAP1 0x2f37800> "Search
forward for a string" nil nil -1) (help-echo #<frame emacs@DRADAMS-LAP1
0x2f37800> "mouse-2: visit this file in other window" #<window 3 on
drews-lisp-20> #<buffer drews-lisp-20> 523) 134217848 115 101 116 45 118 97 114
return 100 101 98 117 103 45 111 110 45 101 114 114 111 114 return 116 return
134217848 115 101 116 ...])
  call-interactively(report-emacs-bug nil nil)

Starting over, emacs -Q, with 2/3 vars set, not `debug-ignored-errors': same
thing.

Starting over, emacs -Q, with only `debug-on-error' set:

I get to buffer *mail to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org*. I type some text "xxxxxxxxxxx",
then `C-c C-c', reply "yes". I get this backtrace:

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (file-error "Searching for program" "no such file
or directory" "/bin/bash")
  call-process("/bin/bash" nil t nil "-c" "uncompface")
  shell-command-to-string("uncompface")
  (string-match "^0x" (shell-command-to-string "uncompface"))
  (and (string-match "^0x" (shell-command-to-string "uncompface"))
(executable-find "icontopbm"))
  (if (featurep (quote xemacs)) (featurep (quote xface)) (and (string-match
"^0x" ...) (executable-find "icontopbm")))
  (and (not noninteractive) (gnus-image-type-available-p (quote xbm)) (if
(featurep ...) (featurep ...) (and ... ...)) (quote head))
  eval((and (not noninteractive) (gnus-image-type-available-p (quote xbm)) (if
(featurep ...) (featurep ...) (and ... ...)) (quote head)))
  custom-initialize-reset(gnus-treat-display-x-face (and (not noninteractive)
(gnus-image-type-available-p (quote xbm)) (if (featurep ...) (featurep ...) (and
... ...)) (quote head)))
  custom-declare-variable(gnus-treat-display-x-face (and (not noninteractive)
(gnus-image-type-available-p (quote xbm)) (if (featurep ...) (featurep ...) (and
... ...)) (quote head)) ("c:/Emacs-23-1-92/lisp/gnus/gnus-art.elc" . 52832)
:group gnus-article-treat :version "21.1" :link (custom-manual
"(gnus)Customizing Articles") :link (custom-manual "(gnus)X-Face") :type (choice
(const :tag "Off" nil) (const :tag "Header" head)) :set #[(symbol value)
"\302\b\303\b!\204\x0e


HTH.

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Feb 24 2010, Drew Adams wrote:

> OK, I tried that too:
> (setq message-send-mail-function 'mailclient-send-it)

I guess this should read ...
(setq message-send-mail-function 'message-send-mail-with-mailclient)

,----[ <f1> v message-send-mail-function RET ]
| message-send-mail-function is a variable defined in `message.el'.
| Its value is 
| message-send-mail-with-sendmail
| 
| Documentation:
| Function to call to send the current buffer as mail.
| The headers should be delimited by a line whose contents match the
| variable `mail-header-separator'.
| 
| Valid values include `message-send-mail-with-sendmail'
| `message-send-mail-with-mh', `message-send-mail-with-qmail',
| `message-smtpmail-send-it', `smtpmail-send-it',
| `feedmail-send-it' and `message-send-mail-with-mailclient'.  The
| default is system dependent and determined by the function
| `message-send-mail-function'.
| 
| See also `send-mail-function'.
| 
| You can customize this variable.
`----

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Lennart Borgman]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 5:26 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
>> Yep, that's the ticket. It restores the Emacs 23.1 (and Emacs
>> 22) behavior.
>
> (Needless to say, I hope, that this should be the out-of-the-box behavior, as
> before. Users should not need to set such variables themselves.)


Of course sending bug reports should work out-of-the-box.

If we ever get a test suite Emacs this is the first thing that should be tested.

RE: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> > >>> Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
> > >>> send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?
> > >>
> > >> It's message-send-mail-function (the variable) that
> > >> one needs to set nowadays.
> > >
> > > OK, I tried that too:
> > > (setq message-send-mail-function 'mailclient-send-it)
> 
> I guess this should read ...
> (setq message-send-mail-function
>       'message-send-mail-with-mailclient)

Dunno what you mean by "should read". It wasn't a typo.
I just did what was suggested.

Maybe you mean "Try this instead"?

bug#5299: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Stefan Monnier]

>>>>> "Drew" == Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> [ Bringing this back to #5299 where it belongs ]
>> 
>> > (setq message-send-mail-function 'mailclient-send-it)
>> >
>> > shell-command-to-string: Searching for program: no such 
>> > file or directory, /bin/bash
>> 
>> Can you get a backtrace of that?
>> [with (setq debug-on-error t) and if
>> that doesn't work with additionally (setq 
>> debug-ignored-errors nil) and/or
>> maybe even (setq debug-on-signal t)]
>> 
>> Also, can you explain why "bash" shows up here?  Do you have 
>> the envvar SHELL set to "/bin/bash" somehow?

> Yes, in my Windows settings (since I use Cygwin).

> With those 3 variables set, emacs -Q:

> Help > Send Bug Report

> Type "ffffffffff" as the subject.
[...]
> Starting over, emacs -Q, with only `debug-on-error' set:

> I get to buffer *mail to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org*. I type some text "xxxxxxxxxxx",
> then `C-c C-c', reply "yes". I get this backtrace:

> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (file-error "Searching for program" "no such file
> or directory" "/bin/bash")
>   call-process("/bin/bash" nil t nil "-c" "uncompface")
>   shell-command-to-string("uncompface")
>   (string-match "^0x" (shell-command-to-string "uncompface"))

Thanks, so I think the patch below is needed, can you try it to see if
it helps?

There's still another bug in sendmail.el where we use
custom-initialize-delay on a defcustom that's autoloaded (the problem
there being that autoloaded defcustoms aren't copied verbatim, so only
some of the defcustom features are supported for autoloaded defcustoms,
and currently custom-initialize-delay is not one of them), but this
patch may be sufficient for you and seems useful in anny case.


        Stefan


=== modified file 'lisp/gnus/gnus-art.el'
--- lisp/gnus/gnus-art.el	2010-01-13 08:35:10 +0000
+++ lisp/gnus/gnus-art.el	2010-02-24 16:25:07 +0000
@@ -1422,8 +1422,12 @@
        (gnus-image-type-available-p 'xbm)
        (if (featurep 'xemacs)
 	   (featurep 'xface)
+	 (condition-case nil
 	 (and (string-match "^0x" (shell-command-to-string "uncompface"))
-	      (executable-find "icontopbm")))
+                  (executable-find "icontopbm"))
+           ;; shell-command-to-string may signal an error, e.g. if
+           ;; shell-file-name is not found.
+           (error nil)))
        'head)
   "Display X-Face headers.
 Valid values are nil and `head'.

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Stefan Monnier]

> There's a bug in the initialization customization variables when this
> initialization is delayed using `custom-initialize-delay' function.

> These get init'd during dumping rather than at run-time.
> The documentation suggests that it's supposed to happen at run-time.

The problem is for customization variables which use
custom-initialize-delay and are autoloaded, because autoload.el ends up
stripping away the custom-initialize-delay.

So either we should fix autoload.el to handle this correctly or we
should not use ;;;###autoload on such defcustom.


        Stefan

bug#5299: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> Thanks, so I think the patch below is needed, can you try it to see if
> it helps?

Nope.

I loaded a patched version of gnus-art.el, then tried to send a bug report.

I got only this (in *Messages*):

Sending...
Sending via mail...
message-send-mail-with-sendmail: Sending...failed with exit value 1

bug#5299: Default mailer (was: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay)

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Thanks, so I think the patch below is needed, can you try it to see if
>> it helps?
> Nope.
> I loaded a patched version of gnus-art.el, then tried to send a bug report.
> I got only this (in *Messages*):

> Sending...
> Sending via mail...
> message-send-mail-with-sendmail: Sending...failed with exit value 1

I guess that good: it means that my patch worked and then you bumped
into the next problem which is that message-send-mail-function is not
set to use mailclient.

I think we need to revisit the setting for the default mailer: I think
neither the mailclient-send-it nor any other setting is a good default.
I think we should instead use as default a special function that prompts
the user whether he wants to use his external MUA to send email
(i.e. use mailclient-send-it), or to use /usr/sbin/sendmail, or to use
smtpmail in which case it'll ask the user to configure his SMTP server.

And this should be used on *all* systems rather than only under w32
and/or macosx, since sadly /usr/sbin/sendmail is too often unusable even
under GNU/Linux (my /usr/sbin/sendmail is usable, but I must admit that
it took me a significant amount of work on my laptop, so I can't expect
most people to go through that trouble).


        Stefan

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Glenn Morris]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> The problem is for customization variables which use
> custom-initialize-delay and are autoloaded, because autoload.el ends up
> stripping away the custom-initialize-delay.
>
> So either we should fix autoload.el to handle this correctly or we
> should not use ;;;###autoload on such defcustom.

It's up to you of course, but IMO since this only affects one
variable, just fixing it "by hand" with a manual autoload of
custom-initialize-delay (together with a doc-fix for said function)
seems fine for 23.2. Sendmail.el already manually autoloads the
saved-value property for some years for similar reasons.

bug#5299: Default mailer (was: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay)

[Lennart Borgman]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Stefan Monnier
<monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>
> I think we need to revisit the setting for the default mailer: I think
> neither the mailclient-send-it nor any other setting is a good default.
> I think we should instead use as default a special function that prompts
> the user whether he wants to use his external MUA to send email
> (i.e. use mailclient-send-it), or to use /usr/sbin/sendmail, or to use
> smtpmail in which case it'll ask the user to configure his SMTP server.
>
> And this should be used on *all* systems rather than only under w32
> and/or macosx, since sadly /usr/sbin/sendmail is too often unusable even
> under GNU/Linux (my /usr/sbin/sendmail is usable, but I must admit that
> it took me a significant amount of work on my laptop, so I can't expect
> most people to go through that trouble).


That sounds good and in line with what we previously did.

bug#5299: Default mailer (was: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay)

[Drew Adams]

> I think we need to revisit the setting for the default mailer: I think
> neither the mailclient-send-it nor any other setting is a 
> good default.
> I think we should instead use as default a special function 
> that prompts
> the user whether he wants to use his external MUA to send email
> (i.e. use mailclient-send-it), or to use /usr/sbin/sendmail, or to use
> smtpmail in which case it'll ask the user to configure his 
> SMTP server.
> 
> And this should be used on *all* systems rather than only under w32
> and/or macosx, since sadly /usr/sbin/sendmail is too often 
> unusable even
> under GNU/Linux (my /usr/sbin/sendmail is usable, but I must 
> admit that
> it took me a significant amount of work on my laptop, so I 
> can't expect
> most people to go through that trouble).

I would hope that if a user is interrupted by such questions this happens only
the first time, not each time s?he sends a mail.

IOW, questions are OK as a means to help a user configure things, but once
defaults are configured according to the user's preference, then there shouldn't
be any more prompting.

If there is a need to let users override their default settings, then that could
perhap be done either via a different command or using C-u.

bug#5299: Default mailer

[Stefan Monnier]

> I would hope that if a user is interrupted by such questions this
> happens only the first time, not each time s?he sends a mail.

Goes without saying,


        Stefan

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:29:26 -0800
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> > > >>> Drew, does the problem in #5299 go away for you if you set
> > > >>> send-mail-function to mailclient-send-it?
> > > >>
> > > >> It's message-send-mail-function (the variable) that
> > > >> one needs to set nowadays.
> > > >
> > > > OK, I tried that too:
> > > > (setq message-send-mail-function 'mailclient-send-it)
> > 
> > I guess this should read ...
> > (setq message-send-mail-function
> >       'message-send-mail-with-mailclient)
> 
> Dunno what you mean by "should read". It wasn't a typo.
> I just did what was suggested.
> 
> Maybe you mean "Try this instead"?

Yes, please try that.  Since message-mode is the default now, it is
important to know that using message-send-mail-with-mailclient will
work for sending bug reports on Windows.

Thanks.

RE: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> > > I guess this should read ...
> > > (setq message-send-mail-function
> > >       'message-send-mail-with-mailclient)
>
> Yes, please try that.  Since message-mode is the default now, it is
> important to know that using message-send-mail-with-mailclient will
> work for sending bug reports on Windows.

No, that doesn't work. Same symptom as before:
"Searching for program: no such file or directory, /bin/bash"

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Glenn Morris]

Glenn Morris wrote:

> + ;;;###autoload(custom-initialize-delay 'send-mail-function nil)

I installed that because I think something like this is important for
tomorrow's (?) pretest. Anyone is of course welcome to change it.

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Stefan Monnier]

>> > > I guess this should read ...
>> > > (setq message-send-mail-function
>> > >       'message-send-mail-with-mailclient)
>> 
>> Yes, please try that.  Since message-mode is the default now, it is
>> important to know that using message-send-mail-with-mailclient will
>> work for sending bug reports on Windows.

> No, that doesn't work. Same symptom as before:
> "Searching for program: no such file or directory, /bin/bash"

Please send us the backtrace as well (it's generally a good idea to
include a backtrace when you get an error).  Actually, I'd recommend you
run your Emacs with debug-on-error always set to t.  It will
occasionally bring up a backtrace for a "minor error from the user", but
it should be rare.


        Stefan

RE: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> >> > > I guess this should read ...
> >> > > (setq message-send-mail-function
> >> > >       'message-send-mail-with-mailclient)
> >> 
> >> Yes, please try that.  Since message-mode is the default now, it is
> >> important to know that using message-send-mail-with-mailclient will
> >> work for sending bug reports on Windows.
> 
> > No, that doesn't work. Same symptom as before:
> > "Searching for program: no such file or directory, /bin/bash"
> 
> Please send us the backtrace as well (it's generally a good idea to
> include a backtrace when you get an error).

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (file-error "Searching for program" "no such file
or directory" "/bin/bash")
  call-process("/bin/bash" nil t nil "-c" "uncompface")
  shell-command-to-string("uncompface")
  (string-match "^0x" (shell-command-to-string "uncompface"))
  (and (string-match "^0x" (shell-command-to-string "uncompface"))
(executable-find "icontopbm"))
  (if (featurep (quote xemacs)) (featurep (quote xface)) (and (string-match
"^0x" ...) (executable-find "icontopbm")))
  (and (not noninteractive) (gnus-image-type-available-p (quote xbm)) (if
(featurep ...) (featurep ...) (and ... ...)) (quote head))
  eval((and (not noninteractive) (gnus-image-type-available-p (quote xbm)) (if
(featurep ...) (featurep ...) (and ... ...)) (quote head)))
  custom-initialize-reset(gnus-treat-display-x-face (and (not noninteractive)
(gnus-image-type-available-p (quote xbm)) (if (featurep ...) (featurep ...) (and
... ...)) (quote head)))
  custom-declare-variable(gnus-treat-display-x-face (and (not noninteractive)
(gnus-image-type-available-p (quote xbm)) (if (featurep ...) (featurep ...) (and
... ...)) (quote head)) ("c:/Emacs-23-1-92/lisp/gnus/gnus-art.elc" . 52832)
:group gnus-article-treat :version "21.1" :link (custom-manual
"(gnus)Customizing Articles") :link (custom-manual "(gnus)X-Face") :type (choice
(const :tag "Off" nil) (const :tag "Header" head)) :set #[(symbol value)
"\302\b\303\b!\204\x0e

Re: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Stefan Monnier]

>> >> > > I guess this should read ...
>> >> > > (setq message-send-mail-function
>> >> > >       'message-send-mail-with-mailclient)
>> >> 
>> >> Yes, please try that.  Since message-mode is the default now, it is
>> >> important to know that using message-send-mail-with-mailclient will
>> >> work for sending bug reports on Windows.
>> 
>> > No, that doesn't work. Same symptom as before:
>> > "Searching for program: no such file or directory, /bin/bash"
>> 
>> Please send us the backtrace as well (it's generally a good idea to
>> include a backtrace when you get an error).

> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (file-error "Searching for program" "no such file
> or directory" "/bin/bash")
>   call-process("/bin/bash" nil t nil "-c" "uncompface")
>   shell-command-to-string("uncompface")
>   (string-match "^0x" (shell-command-to-string "uncompface"))

You're using the old gnus-art.el without the patch I sent (and you
tested) earlier.


        Stefan

RE: custom-reevaluate-setting / custom-initialize-delay

[Drew Adams]

> You're using the old gnus-art.el without the patch I sent (and you
> tested) earlier.

Loading a patched gnus-art.el plus setting message-send-mail-function to
message-send-mail-with-mailclient works.

bug#5299:

[Glenn Morris]

[ See discussion at
  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-02/msg00550.html ]

Drew Adams wrote (on Fri, 26 Feb 2010 at 09:54 -0800):

> Loading a patched gnus-art.el plus setting message-send-mail-function to
> message-send-mail-with-mailclient works.

OK, then with the changes from this report for gnus-art and from #5643
for the default message-send-mail-function, this should be working
again in the latest 23.1.93 pretest.