From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gregory Heytings Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A read-based grep-like for symbols (el-search?) (was Do shorthands break basic tooling (tags, grep, etc)? (was Re: Shorthands have landed on master)) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 09:03:37 +0000 Message-ID: <6969a83a74f0e475e8f8@heytings.org> References: <25d8d72022b571db5291@heytings.org> <87h7e2xsl5.fsf@gmail.com> <25d8d72022e1ea7ed022@heytings.org> <87fstl7lzw.fsf@web.de> <87a6jt7ilx.fsf@web.de> <87fstlzlaq.fsf@gmail.com> <20211001070242.GC16352@tuxteam.de> <1dd5e2c1f4c4adca682f@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8541"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 02 11:04:40 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mWawh-0001xx-IT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:04:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39566 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWawg-0002kh-Al for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 05:04:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55384) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWavm-000258-5i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 05:03:42 -0400 Original-Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:33062) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWavk-0005db-Hn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 05:03:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1633165418; bh=bQiI7mP3T1vvCc4VR821AQ+WZ0SDoFQOSG9PwHKxPlo=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=Tx7LpkEASGT8DgCzWSZkd8ksDrst4WMbUx4A1loW/AY7HWtdPEHRtmBzDxxqEcAhU Eal+C6oyXRcn6PJuRcS+MTnaGS258jzeJaxW3cyECUynbWNZpvcW7BM7W7/5fU53Pk hJ2kzfvAo133o3eniOQJD7sAHaPY0V9IwQpQSGxaAJNLcsXSwX94Jrf5x8NEPFZZUL 20u24UmtpIQdLijWgJDboy/HPBCA3HOx+6K5WU5PdpSelrur9BqRI/ZPWErnJJvQFa Ru0BE9D9a3bkXe361azB5Epda5L/AL/px39twlwcC85KHCO/jphCJ4TwJst3mwa1+9 oyABRF1OzZd4A== In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.142.160.155; envelope-from=gregory@heytings.org; helo=heytings.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:276057 Archived-At: >> The objections raised in this discussion are not only about grep. > > But in this thread, we're discussing a grep-like, so please don't derail > it with the same points rebutted over and over. > You started a subthread to discuss possible solutions from the point of view of grep, which is fine, but it is IMO important to not forget that the fact that shorthands break grep is not the only problem, and perhaps even not the most important one. >> They are also about tag systems (that can do more complex operations >> than grep on source files), and about the problem of code readability >> for Elisp programmers. All of a sudden symbols can silently be >> transformed by 'read' without any clear indication that such a >> transformation takes place. > > I'm getting a bit tired of stressing that things with no "clear > indication" are what higher level-languages are about: anonymous > functions, macros, etc abstraction in general. Namespaces are also that: > you may not like them but they exist everywhere else for a reason. > AFAIK, no other language use a shorthand-like approach to implement namespaces. That's perhaps not without a reason.