RE: multiple Emacs versions on w32

RE: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Phillip Lord]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:38:12 -0000
>> From: "Phillip Lord" <Phillip.Lord@newcastle.ac.uk>
>> 
>> Of course, emacs shouldn't be core dumping, and solving this problem
>> seems the best course to me.
> 
> Yes, of course.  But to fix a bug, we need to hear the details and
> preferably to reproduce it on some of the developers' machine(s).
> Which unfortunately didn't happen in this case yet.

Eli

My apologies if this appeared to be a criticism of the developers. 
What I meant was that if the OP's only reason for wishing to maintain
two Emacs' up is because of one version crashing, then their best course
of action would be to spend effort working out why it was crashing 
rather than how to run two at once. 

It's clearly true that the developers can't fix something that they
don't know about or can't reproduce. 


>> I agree. The disabled commands option writes to .emacs.
>> 
>> If I may be so bold, I think that this is a problem with emacs.
> 
> Feel free to ask for such a feature on the developers' list.  Here, I
> just tried to save a naive user some possible grief.

Again, you are right. I didn't mean to complicate things which should 
be left simple. 

Cheers

Phil;

RE: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Phillip Lord]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:14:00 -0000
>> From: "Phillip Lord" <Phillip.Lord@newcastle.ac.uk>
>> Cc:
>> 
>> launch emacs with "-q -l ~/.emacs.22" (or what ever file
>> you want to use).
> 
> That won't produce the same effect as a .emacs file, since the init
> file is loaded at a different stage of the startup process than files
> loaded through -l.  The OP could have subtle problems if he used this
> suggestion.

True enough, but the problems are likely to more subtle than the 
crashes they reported. 

Of course, emacs shouldn't be core dumping, and solving this problem
seems the best course to me. 

Having said that, I've used this technique for years -- I normally
use two emacs, one for email and one for everything else (checking email
from the server can take a while, and emacs is single threaded). 


 
>> Or alternatively you could use the emacs-version variable, and
>> have your .emacs work appropriately. You'd need check that your
>> `custom-file' is being set appropriately.
> 
> But this won't solve the original problem, as I understand it: that
> Emacs updates .emacs when you save certain settings.  Setting
> `custom-file' is not going to resolve this 100%, as some packages
> write to .emacs.


I agree. The disabled commands option writes to .emacs. 

If I may be so bold, I think that this is a problem with emacs. 
Really, all packages which write to somewhere should be configurable
through a single variable. 

Cheers

Phil

Re: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Kevin Rodgers]

Phillip Lord wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>>>From: "Phillip Lord" <Phillip.Lord@newcastle.ac.uk>
>>>Or alternatively you could use the emacs-version variable, and
>>>have your .emacs work appropriately. You'd need check that your
>>>`custom-file' is being set appropriately.
>>
>>But this won't solve the original problem, as I understand it: that
>>Emacs updates .emacs when you save certain settings.  Setting
>>`custom-file' is not going to resolve this 100%, as some packages
>>write to .emacs.
> 
> I agree. The disabled commands option writes to .emacs. 
> 
> If I may be so bold, I think that this is a problem with emacs. 
> Really, all packages which write to somewhere should be configurable
> through a single variable. 

diasable-command and enable-command write to user-init-file, if it 
exists.  If it doesn't exist, it writes to ~/.emacs.

So put this in ~/.emacs:

(or (file-exists-p (setq user-init-file
                          (expand-file-name (concat ".emacs-"
                                                    emacs-major-version)
                                            "~")))
     (setq user-init-file
           (expand-file-name ".emacs-" "~")))

;;(setq custom-file user-init-file)

-- 
Kevin Rodgers

Re: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:38:12 -0000
> From: "Phillip Lord" <Phillip.Lord@newcastle.ac.uk>
> 
> Of course, emacs shouldn't be core dumping, and solving this problem
> seems the best course to me. 

Yes, of course.  But to fix a bug, we need to hear the details and
preferably to reproduce it on some of the developers' machine(s).
Which unfortunately didn't happen in this case yet.

> Having said that, I've used this technique for years -- I normally
> use two emacs, one for email and one for everything else (checking email
> from the server can take a while, and emacs is single threaded). 

If I wasn't clear: this _can_ work, if one is careful not to put into
their .emacs anything that needs to be executed during startup (as
opposed to after it).  For example, any code added to
window-setup-hook will not work except in .emacs (and site-init.el).

> I agree. The disabled commands option writes to .emacs. 
> 
> If I may be so bold, I think that this is a problem with emacs. 

Feel free to ask for such a feature on the developers' list.  Here, I
just tried to save a naive user some possible grief.

Re: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Phillip Lord]

>>>>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

  >> Having said that, I've used this technique for years -- I
  >> normally use two emacs, one for email and one for everything else
  >> (checking email from the server can take a while, and emacs is
  >> single threaded).

  Eli> If I wasn't clear: this _can_ work, if one is careful not to
  Eli> put into their .emacs anything that needs to be executed during
  Eli> startup (as opposed to after it).  For example, any code added
  Eli> to window-setup-hook will not work except in .emacs (and
  Eli> site-init.el).

  >> I agree. The disabled commands option writes to .emacs.
  >> 
  >> If I may be so bold, I think that this is a problem with emacs.

  Eli> Feel free to ask for such a feature on the developers' list.
  Eli> Here, I just tried to save a naive user some possible grief.


Funnily enough, the day after you sent a note saying that using the
"emacs -q -l" approach to effectively move the location of the .emacs
file can cause subtle errors, I hit one!

I've just moved back to using Emacs for reading mail, after several
months of hell at the hands of outlook. I use two emacs for a variety
of reasons; anyway, this technique doesn't work now, because it
nobbles custom, even if you have re-directed `custom-file'. 

Setting user-init-file to the same value as custom-file seems to work,
so I guess it's not a total disaster!

Phil

RE: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Phillip Lord]

B. T. Raven wrote:
> I am using both 21.3 and 22.0.50.1 on the same machine (w32-msw98).
> Autoexec.bat has "set HOME=d:\emacs"; emacs 21.3 is in
> d:\emacs\emacs21.3 and the cvs version is in e:\emacs\emacs. Both
> start with --debug-init which doesn't report any problems. Since the
> .emacs is in the home directory, the two versions are stomping all
> over each other. For example,even if I hide the versions from each
> other they seem to update the .emacs in different ways (probably due
> to subtle changes in the side effects of functions or in the use of
> built in variables. display-time, iswitchb, and recentf-mode work
> differently. Is there any way that I can parameterize the invocation
> of the two versions or at least set them up so as to allow each one
> to load its own separate version of the dotemacs? For now I use the
> cvs version only for its more complete documentation and for tutorial
> purposes since it won't run for longer than a couple of hours without
> causing a segmentation fault. 
> 



There are a couple of options. 

Either launch emacs with "-q -l ~/.emacs.22" (or what ever file
you want to use). 

Or alternatively you could use the emacs-version variable, and 
have your .emacs work appropriately. You'd need check that your
`custom-file' is being set appropriately. 

Incidentally, emacs should not seg fault after a couple of hours. 
I'm using the emacs-w32 from here. 
http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html

I use the unpatched version without the W32 integration layer. 
This works well for me. I think I got it to core dump once, but
not repeatedly. 

Cheers

Phil

Re: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Lennart Borgman]

Phillip Lord wrote:
> B. T. Raven wrote:
>   
>> I am using both 21.3 and 22.0.50.1 on the same machine (w32-msw98).
>>     
...
>> differently. Is there any way that I can parameterize the invocation
>> of the two versions or at least set them up so as to allow each one
>> to load its own separate version of the dotemacs? For now I use the
>> cvs version only for its more complete documentation and for tutorial
>> purposes since it won't run for longer than a couple of hours without
>> causing a segmentation fault. 
>>
>>     
>
>
>
> There are a couple of options. 
>
> Either launch emacs with "-q -l ~/.emacs.22" (or what ever file
> you want to use). 
>
> Or alternatively you could use the emacs-version variable, and 
> have your .emacs work appropriately. You'd need check that your
> `custom-file' is being set appropriately. 
>
> Incidentally, emacs should not seg fault after a couple of hours. 
> I'm using the emacs-w32 from here. 
> http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html
>
> I use the unpatched version without the W32 integration layer. 
> This works well for me. I think I got it to core dump once, but
> not repeatedly. 
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil
>   

I use something similar to this in my .emacs:

    (progn
      (cond
       ( (equal emacs-version "21.3.1")
     (setq custom-file "~/.emacs-cust-21.3.el"))
       ( t
     (setq custom-file "~/.emacs-cust-cvs.el")))
   (when (file-exists-p custom-file)
      (load custom-file)))

If you want to switch between different installed versions of Emacs you 
can use "usethis.exe" that comes with EmacsW32 and should be in the 
emacs\bin directory. This will change "emacs_dir" in the Registry so 
that gnuclient will select the one you have choosen.

I am using the patched version of Emacs that is available on the site 
above. I do not think I have seen any core dumps at all.
Have you tested that version? Do you see any crashes with this version? 
Do you have more information about the crashes? (See "Bugs" in the Emacs 
info.)

-- lennart

Re: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:14:00 -0000
> From: "Phillip Lord" <Phillip.Lord@newcastle.ac.uk>
> Cc: 
> 
> launch emacs with "-q -l ~/.emacs.22" (or what ever file
> you want to use). 

That won't produce the same effect as a .emacs file, since the init
file is loaded at a different stage of the startup process than files
loaded through -l.  The OP could have subtle problems if he used this
suggestion.

> Or alternatively you could use the emacs-version variable, and 
> have your .emacs work appropriately. You'd need check that your
> `custom-file' is being set appropriately. 

But this won't solve the original problem, as I understand it: that
Emacs updates .emacs when you save certain settings.  Setting
`custom-file' is not going to resolve this 100%, as some packages
write to .emacs.

multiple Emacs versions on w32

[B. T. Raven]

I am using both 21.3 and 22.0.50.1 on the same machine (w32-msw98).
Autoexec.bat has "set HOME=d:\emacs"; emacs 21.3 is in d:\emacs\emacs21.3
and the cvs version is in e:\emacs\emacs. Both start with --debug-init
which doesn't report any problems. Since the .emacs is in the home
directory, the two versions are stomping all over each other. For
example,even if I hide the versions from each other they seem to update
the .emacs in different ways (probably due to subtle changes in the side
effects of functions or in the use of built in variables. display-time,
iswitchb, and recentf-mode work differently. Is there any way that I can
parameterize the invocation of the two versions or at least set them up so
as to allow each one to load its own separate version of the dotemacs? For
now I use the cvs version only for its more complete documentation and for
tutorial purposes since it won't run for longer than a couple of hours
without causing a segmentation fault.

Thanks,

Ed

Re: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@peoplepc.com>
> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:59:37 GMT
> 
> I am using both 21.3 and 22.0.50.1 on the same machine (w32-msw98).
> Autoexec.bat has "set HOME=d:\emacs"; emacs 21.3 is in d:\emacs\emacs21.3
> and the cvs version is in e:\emacs\emacs. Both start with --debug-init
> which doesn't report any problems. Since the .emacs is in the home
> directory, the two versions are stomping all over each other.

Why would you need two versions of Emacs on the same machine?  If
that's because the CVS version crashes, then (a) report the crashes,
and (b) don't use the CVS version until the crashes are fixed.

> Is there any way that I can parameterize the invocation of the two
> versions or at least set them up so as to allow each one to load its
> own separate version of the dotemacs?

One way to do that is to have 2 batch files that set HOME (each one to
a different place) before they run runemacs.exe.

> For now I use the cvs version only for its more complete
> documentation and for tutorial purposes since it won't run for
> longer than a couple of hours without causing a segmentation fault.

I use the CVS version exclusively, and it runs for weeks without
crashing.  So please report the crashes (to emacs-devel@gnu.org),
because they shouldn't happen.

Re: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 15.03.2006 um 15:59 schrieb B. T. Raven:

> For example,even if I hide the versions from each other they seem  
> to update
> the .emacs in different ways (probably due to subtle changes in the  
> side
> effects of functions or in the use of built in variables. display- 
> time,
> iswitchb, and recentf-mode work differently. Is there any way that  
> I can
> parameterize the invocation of the two versions or at least set  
> them up so
> as to allow each one to load its own separate version of the dotemacs?

I made the same experience having more than half a dozen Emacsen  
(four major versions) ... (for fun!)

This is the cure:

	(if (not (string-match "XEmacs" mEV))
	    (progn
	        (setq custom-file (format "~/.emacs-Abrichtung-%d.el" emacs- 
major-version))
	        (load (format "~/.emacs-Abrichtung-%d.el" emacs-major-version))
	;       (add-hook 'write-file-hooks 'time-stamp)
	        (add-hook 'before-save-hook 'time-stamp)
	))

The German word Abrichtung means something like training, training a  
horse, i.e. part of a "customisation." mEV is:

	(defconst mEV (emacs-version)
	  "Keep the Emacs version string,
	   that is needed a few times.")


Before you put this block into .emacs you should copy the  
recent .emacs file to the new files and remove all non-custom-set- 
variables and all non-custom-set-faces, i.e. remove from top to the  
first "(custom-" line. Then remove in .emacs all contents from the  
first "(custom-" line until the end. Then you'll have some  
opportunities to adapt the two "training" files' contents to what  
each version accepts ...


--
Greetings

   Pete

Chicago, n.:
         Where the dead still vote ... early and often!

Re: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[B. T. Raven]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.73.1142450879.9686.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org...
> > From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@peoplepc.com>
> > Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:59:37 GMT
> >
> > I am using both 21.3 and 22.0.50.1 on the same machine (w32-msw98).
> > Autoexec.bat has "set HOME=d:\emacs"; emacs 21.3 is in
d:\emacs\emacs21.3
> > and the cvs version is in e:\emacs\emacs. Both start with --debug-init
> > which doesn't report any problems. Since the .emacs is in the home
> > directory, the two versions are stomping all over each other.
>
> Why would you need two versions of Emacs on the same machine?  If
> that's because the CVS version crashes, then (a) report the crashes,
> and (b) don't use the CVS version until the crashes are fixed.

i. I want to start learning 22.0 whether it works perfectly or not.

ii. I tried to report bugs to the address published in emacs itself
(emacs-devel@gnu.org), but nothing happened and then to the ng
gnu.emacs.bugs but my posting didn't appear there either. Finally Eli had
to send me instructions on how to install an msw version of gdb so that I
could start emacs in that environment. The bottom line is that I don't
know enough yet to start reporting bugs. This msw98 os seems to be held
together with spit and string and my reporting of symptoms would be too
nebulous to be of any help to the developers. All I know is that the
system either bluescreens or blackscreens about 10 times more frequently
with 22 running than with 21.

iii. emacs-build-time for ver. 22 is (17372 40543 497000) if that's any
help.


>
> > Is there any way that I can parameterize the invocation of the two
> > versions or at least set them up so as to allow each one to load its
> > own separate version of the dotemacs?
>
> One way to do that is to have 2 batch files that set HOME (each one to
> a different place) before they run runemacs.exe.
>
> > For now I use the cvs version only for its more complete
> > documentation and for tutorial purposes since it won't run for
> > longer than a couple of hours without causing a segmentation fault.
>
> I use the CVS version exclusively, and it runs for weeks without
> crashing.  So please report the crashes (to emacs-devel@gnu.org),
> because they shouldn't happen.

Thanks again Eli, Phillip, Lennart, and Peter. Eli's solution worked at
about the 90th percentile. I have emacs1.bat and emacs2.bat with Set
HOME=.... and then a runemacs --debug-init called with an absolute path to
the respective bin subdirectories. The only (maybe) thing that doesn't
work is the working directory specified in  the shortcut to the emacs2.bat
file. default-directory is set to HOME rather than this document
subdirectory. emac1.bat works correctly it even uses use-file-dialog
correctly, which 22.0.50.1 doesn't do.

Ed.

Re: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@peoplepc.com>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:22:41 GMT
> 
> ii. I tried to report bugs to the address published in emacs itself
> (emacs-devel@gnu.org), but nothing happened and then to the ng
> gnu.emacs.bugs but my posting didn't appear there either. Finally Eli had
> to send me instructions on how to install an msw version of gdb so that I
> could start emacs in that environment. The bottom line is that I don't
> know enough yet to start reporting bugs. This msw98 os seems to be held
> together with spit and string and my reporting of symptoms would be too
> nebulous to be of any help to the developers. All I know is that the
> system either bluescreens or blackscreens about 10 times more frequently
> with 22 running than with 21.

The only report from you I found in emacs-devel archives was from 2
weeks ago, and it talked about Windows 2000 on a Compaq E500, not
about Windows 98.  (On the contrary, you said that on Windows 98 Emacs
does run well.)

In response I gave you directions to where you could download GDB and
asked for more details.  You never followed up, so I really cannot see
how could I help more.

So ``I reported but nothing happened'' is hardly a fair description of
that event.

If you do have more details, by all means post them to emacs-devel,
and I'm sure someone will respond and try to help.

> iii. emacs-build-time for ver. 22 is (17372 40543 497000) if that's any
> help.

Unless I'm mistaken, this is about 45 days ago.  I don't think Emacs
22 was so flaky then, but if you can build the latest CVS version,
please try.

But the really useful information would be to tell what are you doing
when Emacs crashes.  Also, perhaps try selectively commenting out
parts of your .emacs and see if that helps.  For starters, launch
"emacs -q" and see how long it manages to stay alive.  If there are
significant differences in stability between "emacs -q" and the normal
session, the key to unlocking this mystery is in some package you load
in your .emacs or some feature you turn on there.

> The only (maybe) thing that doesn't work is the working directory
> specified in the shortcut to the emacs2.bat file. default-directory
> is set to HOME rather than this document subdirectory.

You can control this in the shortcut's Properties.

> emac1.bat works correctly it even uses use-file-dialog correctly,
> which 22.0.50.1 doesn't do.

The file dialog does work for me in Emacs 22 (on Windows XP).  So this
sounds like another bug, perhaps specific to your machine's setup.
Please report it.

Re: multiple Emacs versions on w32

[B. T. Raven]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.7.1142594542.3794.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org...
> > From: "B. T. Raven" <ecinmn@peoplepc.com>
> > Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:22:41 GMT
> >
> > ii. I tried to report bugs to the address published in emacs itself
> > (emacs-devel@gnu.org), but nothing happened and then to the ng
> > gnu.emacs.bugs but my posting didn't appear there either. Finally Eli
had
> > to send me instructions on how to install an msw version of gdb so
that I
> > could start emacs in that environment. The bottom line is that I don't
> > know enough yet to start reporting bugs. This msw98 os seems to be
held
> > together with spit and string and my reporting of symptoms would be
too
> > nebulous to be of any help to the developers. All I know is that the
> > system either bluescreens or blackscreens about 10 times more
frequently
> > with 22 running than with 21.
>
> The only report from you I found in emacs-devel archives was from 2
> weeks ago, and it talked about Windows 2000 on a Compaq E500, not
> about Windows 98.  (On the contrary, you said that on Windows 98 Emacs
> does run well.)
>
> In response I gave you directions to where you could download GDB and
> asked for more details.  You never followed up, so I really cannot see
> how could I help more.
>
> So ``I reported but nothing happened'' is hardly a fair description of
> that event.
>
> If you do have more details, by all means post them to emacs-devel,
> and I'm sure someone will respond and try to help.
>
> > iii. emacs-build-time for ver. 22 is (17372 40543 497000) if that's
any
> > help.
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, this is about 45 days ago.  I don't think Emacs
> 22 was so flaky then, but if you can build the latest CVS version,
> please try.
>
> But the really useful information would be to tell what are you doing
> when Emacs crashes.  Also, perhaps try selectively commenting out
> parts of your .emacs and see if that helps.  For starters, launch
> "emacs -q" and see how long it manages to stay alive.  If there are
> significant differences in stability between "emacs -q" and the normal
> session, the key to unlocking this mystery is in some package you load
> in your .emacs or some feature you turn on there.
>
> > The only (maybe) thing that doesn't work is the working directory
> > specified in the shortcut to the emacs2.bat file. default-directory
> > is set to HOME rather than this document subdirectory.
>
> You can control this in the shortcut's Properties.
>
> > emac1.bat works correctly it even uses use-file-dialog correctly,
> > which 22.0.50.1 doesn't do.
>
> The file dialog does work for me in Emacs 22 (on Windows XP).  So this
> sounds like another bug, perhaps specific to your machine's setup.
> Please report it.
>
>

Thanks, Eli. Please don't tell me to build anything. I think I once got a
clean compile of the hello.c example from Kernigan and Ritchie but I'm not
sure. After running Norton Utilities and then re-booting I don't
experience the aforesaid flakiness. I may have too many things running at
the same time.

Ed.