From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: custom: how do I augment an option? Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 14:15:41 -0700 Message-ID: <67A2247E25BC41A09BFD76399CE3A03F@us.oracle.com> References: <87zk5473qz.fsf@gnu.org> <87ehmgcm8k.fsf@gnu.org><92BD2872D2E546BA94A3CAE398693C26@us.oracle.com> <87ehmgnqqz.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1346879759 12988 80.91.229.3 (5 Sep 2012 21:15:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 21:15:59 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 05 23:16:01 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1T9Mx7-0003ZG-6v for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 23:16:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39155 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T9Mx3-0003kf-Nz for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 17:15:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:50995) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T9Mwx-0003jX-NO for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 17:15:52 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T9Mww-0005Pf-I4 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 17:15:51 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:28662) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T9Mwt-0005P4-Ns; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 17:15:47 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q85LFh5M030068 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 5 Sep 2012 21:15:43 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q85LFgsA026029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 5 Sep 2012 21:15:43 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt107.oracle.com (abhmt107.oracle.com [141.146.116.59]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q85LFgNB013816; Wed, 5 Sep 2012 16:15:42 -0500 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.248) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 14:15:42 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87ehmgnqqz.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: Ac2Lp1lxmGP6vEb/T8eBj948V+t9ggAAJL9Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:86665 Archived-At: > > Why not just use Customize? > > I don't like the gui; I don't like the GUI either. Which is why I've made improvement suggestions, filed bug reports, and come up some extensions of my own. But I recognize that the GUI at least _works_, and it can often give you answers to questions like the one you raised. And I've seen a fair amount of hand-coded customize-workaround stuff in .emacs files that does _not_ work or does not provide the type-checking and proper initialization/setting code that Customize provides. It is not uncommon for people to underestimate Customize, IMO. Customize is in fact surprisingly solid, and it does quite a lot that you or I might never think to do by hand. IOW, if you don't want to use the GUI then there is a fair amount that you become responsible for getting right, if you want the same solid result. This is even more true if you write code that others will use, since they will do things differently from what you might expect. > also see below (sneak preview: customize is broken :-). Please, don't just tell us here. `M-x report-emacs-bug', if you think Emacs code is broken. That's the only real hope (however slim it might be in some cases) of getting something fixed. In all likelihood (my guess), if "customize" does not seem to do the right thing in this particular case it is not because Customize is broken but because the programmer who coded this particular user option did not do the right thing. Those are not the same thing. And the devil is in the details. So provide the details to Emacs Dev by reporting a bug. You would not say "Lisp is broken" just because some programmer wrote some Lisp code that didn't work, would you? > While if I go your way, then message-syntax-checks will not depend on > message-insert-canlock! It is not my way. I don't even use `message-syntax-checks' or Gnus, at all. And I have _no_ plans to ever do so. I do use `defcustom' heavily (more and more so), and I do use the Customize GUI. FWIW, I didn't used to use Customize. Like you, I was convinced that my reason for that was that I didn't like the GUI. I changed my mind about using it years ago, though I am still of the opinion that the GUI sucks. And the underlying Lisp code is virtually impenetrable, if not a mine field. What does not suck, however, is what Customize _does_, as opposed to how ugly/inconvenient it might be to use or how hard its code might be to fathom. I use a separate `custom-file' (Touches pas a mon .emacs!), and I find that letting Customize handle my option & face customizations is a lot less problematic than fiddling with the equivalent Lisp code myself. YMMV. I'm not trying to convince you - just telling my own story. IMHO, Customize is your friend - ugly and hard to understand, but your friend nonetheless.