From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#4562: 23.1; Customize State button problems Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:54:14 -0700 Message-ID: <664EEF39729C43539A95144DF1E4DDA9@us.oracle.com> References: <75988BB2DE8C4DE6A16228719FF4E6EF@us.oracle.com> Reply-To: Drew Adams , 4562@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1254128848 30212 80.91.229.12 (28 Sep 2009 09:07:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:07:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 4562@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com To: "'Stefan Monnier'" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 28 11:07:20 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1MsCCW-00045j-0B for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:07:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44243 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MsCCV-0004as-2P for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:07:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MsCCR-0004a4-4n for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:07:15 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MsCCM-0004VR-M3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:07:14 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=58147 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MsCCM-0004V6-Cr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:07:10 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:56840) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MsCCL-0007bw-9q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:07:09 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8S976TK027134; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:07:07 -0700 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8S903Zd020799; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:00:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:00:03 -0700 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs 2Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:00:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 4562 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 4562-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B4562.125412804720078 (code B ref 4562); Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:00:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 4562) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 28 Sep 2009 08:54:07 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. Original-Received: from rgminet11.oracle.com (rcsinet11.oracle.com [148.87.113.123]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8S8s6tA020075 for <4562@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:54:07 -0700 Original-Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rgminet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n8S8svpq004916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 28 Sep 2009 08:54:58 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt014.oracle.com (abhmt014.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n8S8sPe8020680; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 08:54:25 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.190.74) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:53:56 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Aco//ogIPIAq7WmDQIuCj7/dSRr/BQAGdBHw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: abhmt014.oracle.com [141.146.116.23] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4AC079A5.00D5:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:07:14 -0400 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:31560 Archived-At: > > The State text says "CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it here > > may be unreliable.", which is untrue. This is immediately > > after using `emacs -Q'. > > You misunderstand: "CHANGED outside Customize" doesn't mean > "You changed it", but instead it means "some Lisp code somewhere > changed it without telling Customize". I do understand that. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "which is untrue". The point is that the message is not helpful to users. It shouldn't be the case that a virgin session, without loading anything else, starts out by saying that something changed the Customize initial settings, that is, what Customize expects its virgin state to be isn't. Unless you're saying that it is normal for the initial Customize state to be that. In which case I don't know whether I would agree, but I would in any case say it's not normal to state things in those terms to users at the outset. > That Lisp code could be in your .emacs, but > not necesarily. I hope this makes the rest of the behavior a bit more > understable (tho probably not completely clear since it seems > some part are indeed odd). > > So what you have here is simply a bug where Emacs's startup code > modifies default-frame-alist without telling Customize about it. That's what I'm talking about (though I don't know the details). > IIUC it's not easy to fix it, because some of those changes are things > which shoujldn't be saved in the Custom version of default-frame-alist > (they are dynamically set at startup depending on your window-system > and/or command-line args). I guess basically what it means is that > default-frame-alist shouldn't be a defcustom becaude we don't know how > to let Custom handle it correctly. I won't pronounce on any of that. I will say that seeing that message at the outset is not a good thing. What the right remedy is, I can't say. Maybe it _is_ normal to start out the way we do (dunno), but in that case, we should at least suppress (fudge) the scary message.