From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Installing cond* in core Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 15:48:04 +0200 Message-ID: <6415235c-b06c-41b2-9909-39ecc74a6873@gutov.dev> References: <868r4a6lbb.fsf@gnu.org> <3cf3ba2d-873f-44d8-81f4-420d8954fd8e@gutov.dev> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10848"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cc: Eli Zaretskii , stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 28 14:49:03 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rU5Wv-0002bF-1U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 14:49:01 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rU5WQ-0000cD-BD; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:48:30 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rU5W7-0000Vr-Na for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:48:15 -0500 Original-Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.21]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rU5W5-0006jK-MU; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:48:11 -0500 Original-Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.48]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F493200AA6; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:48:07 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:48:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1706449686; x=1706536086; bh=oGROA0T3OPncWt7YxIjWzb+KRIwfMw1lZ1oIfNs2yDY=; b= KDgltJW9jyYospndTUVvIpFzaBqu8zQLwYjnnG7kPaDkHdWildEYGwrqFLSoEpjv Ou9e8uUZ843Udfc8fhdOWpyLR6KNZQL8rbTFPU7x4m0y9hzsUxAwEq1sh+Va/hx+ W+LKoB6WdVAYII5B4mGDdG/Dt7H16puXMOOwNlhUncgEY28KN+qfF0RxA06yLgyR BZd8UgfcluyIldyjLR6LGnaRIKDq5Cqipjwpe/Fo/4vMaVnRHedh+2pLUu2YMCaG Ptfe/5c2NhRCWZgwPIwkc4wunuE21Jty+jaTgblmyfht+u+RdkPkdUERVRRLymMG 2e7sUkqhnmzaqhlbqlzPjA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1706449686; x= 1706536086; bh=oGROA0T3OPncWt7YxIjWzb+KRIwfMw1lZ1oIfNs2yDY=; b=M bwWd9LiE1CCdJsHUthflHZ6AL22SLh9C0Yk5jTfn23zZtXwp2XkWzAw8HDsBab4d N7pcIMmqvBGw8IusRUREQ/cpEoPosOM0KHZjqjLaQ8M8IEw5XL1Qg0p+K8Rp0jAs zRBOi1w4tpBCPEMJX4ucr2jBXete4ZbuLWlMQmtfyKeM1PAv+ivDnnlenVluE8/g W10UqQQGRLuq6nITVar3ra05SBoqnt/gWT4t1LFdqrODbX7fy5DM/8rCuL8APBhC EDBJzWO3q9RC8Gsjyd/KoU7sfGq9s2t7h5F8/U/XEvNWKBSC1Hvs2fsJQyLPKmmt oNQ+njOHf6NVM/GgDWY/A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrfedtvddgheeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvvehfhfgjtgfgsehtjeertddtvdejnecuhfhrohhmpeffmhhi thhrhicuifhuthhovhcuoegumhhithhrhiesghhuthhovhdruggvvheqnecuggftrfgrth htvghrnhepteduleejgeehtefgheegjeekueehvdevieekueeftddvtdevfefhvdevgedu jeehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepug hmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghv X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Original-Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:48:05 -0500 (EST) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.21; envelope-from=dmitry@gutov.dev; helo=wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -26 X-Spam_score: -2.7 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_SBL_A=0.1 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:315549 Archived-At: On 28/01/2024 15:38, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hello, Dmitry. > > On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 15:02:29 +0200, Dmitry Gutov wrote: >> On 28/01/2024 14:38, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >>> Pretending it didn't happen and failing to discuss it is not healthy for >>> the project. Routine bug fixes, and uncontroversial stuff is committed >>> without discussion, yes. Otherwise we'd be doing nothing else but silly >>> discussions on emacs-devel. > >> The addition of pcase was a boon for the project. > > You're missing the point. pcase has flaws, and even now, 14 years > later, isn't satisfactorally documented. All you seem to be saying is > that pcase is better than no pcase. I'd agree with that. > > But if pcase were so good, why is Richard writing a better replacement? It all started with some people not understanding what pcase does and how it works. We're yet to see whether cond* is any better in those areas. >> Its uses in particularly important areas, like bytecomp, might have been >> a subject for discussion, but we don't really do that when all active >> contributors to an area of code agree with the technical decision. > > You're being a bit vague there, but when have all active contributors to > any area of code been in agreement? A lot of times. Or in enough of an agreement for there being no problems to discuss. >> And they did agree, otherwise the discussion would have had materialized >> at the spot. > > That's not the way things happened. pcase was simply installed in > Emacs, with all its faults, and then proliferated round Emacs. Where > was the room for discussion? Discussion is difficult after something > has already been done. We're doing it all the time by commenting on commits in an email to emacs-devel. > If you're trying to say that pcase is better than nothing, so people use > it, then I'd agree. But if you're trying to insist it's as good as it > could be, One does not need to insist on that to disagree with your original statements. > I'd ask you why Richard is spending a lot of time crafting a > better replacement. Rewriting other people's code that one doesn't understand has a long and varied history in software development. We even have a term for it.