From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: Issues with emacs Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:18:34 -0700 Message-ID: <61A0BF66CAD94FF8AC3DE69FEA31BCB2@us.oracle.com> References: <87bokbb4zw.fsf@gnu.org> <4FE6E8A1.5060107@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1340547561 28983 80.91.229.3 (24 Jun 2012 14:19:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:19:21 +0000 (UTC) To: Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 24 16:19:21 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Sineq-0006Ox-F0 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 16:19:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34447 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sineq-0000ka-Cg for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:19:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42590) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sinel-0000kU-5w for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:19:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sinej-0007FL-71 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:19:14 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:29351) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sinej-0007FF-0I for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:19:13 -0400 Original-Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q5OEJA8W028643 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:19:10 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q5OEJ9w7014864 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:19:10 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt115.oracle.com (abhmt115.oracle.com [141.146.116.67]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q5OEJ9oG029060 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 09:19:09 -0500 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:19:09 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4FE6E8A1.5060107@gmail.com> Thread-Index: Ac1R8j/sfOGKlV8WSdCFsY5q8m49NgAHSquA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 148.87.113.117 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:85423 Archived-At: > 1) improve the menu to live up to "moderm" menu standards, so > that efffectually everything could > be done by using the mouse (*but most definitely keep the > keyboard shortcuts!!!!!!!). I know that > this is not possible for all additional packages, but at > least the emacs core should be usable > completely via mouse. > > 2) improve the GUI look, to conform more with a "modern" look > > 3) change the menu, so that there the new users learns to do > the stuff by using the mose (and > introduce the keyboard e.g. in brackets). > > - From my experience: when (or in many cases "if") the new > user manages to accept and use way of > using emacs (now via initially *very strange* keyboard > shortcuts) to reach the brilliant features > and tha land off possibilities hidden behind, they will stay. > If the initial crossing of the > border can be done easier, more users will discover the > wonders of emacs. 1. FWIW, I agree with this. Menus are a great way to discover. They need to be well organized, of course. But given good organization, that organization can be a tremendous learning aid (and a memory aid). In my libraries I generally spend time trying to (a) put more stuff on menus, (b) get the menu item terminology right, and (c) organize the menus well. Not that I always succeed (yes, it takes time, thought, and practice using the resulting menus), but I try. This is also a motivation behind La Carte (easier keyboard access to menus) and Icicles (combined with La Carte, access menu items at any level using substrings, regexps etc.). http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/LaCarte http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsNewbieWithIcicles#toc7 2. Likewise, the mouse. A direct-access pointing device is a tremendous asset to human-machine interaction. (That notion is anathema to some Emacs folk, though you would think that brief reflection on tape-vs-disk access would be enough to turn on the light. Yes, of course Emacs has direct-access key sequences, but a mouse gives you direct access _anywhere_: look, point to a destination, bam!) 3. There is a place for _both_ (a) in-depth documentation and (b) well designed keyboard shortcuts, on the one hand, and (c) well designed menus and (d) mouse interaction, on the other hand. 4. Emacs has moved from only doc and only keyboard (and only console - no frames) toward incorporation of more "modern" GUI stuff. But most of that movement happened long, long ago, when those things first became possible to add to Emacs (back when X Window and window managers in general were new). And most of it happened outside the GNU Emacs development stream and was only incorporated later (and sometimes not too enthusiastically). Epoch and XEmacs get kudos here, to mention just two. And yes, there is still a long way to go. 5. If you are interested in going further, please contribute and participate. It is (as has amply been demonstrated) not enough to whine that Emacs is not "modern" enough, and to expect the old guard to step up to the plate and do what you think should be done. Whether what you want gets done depends on you. Improving the use of menus and improving doc/help access is approachable by nearly anyone. Menu implementation is a bit complicated, and so are keymaps. But once past the initial hurdle it is not hard to make a concrete implementation improvement/proposal. Whether a particular proposal gets adopted is another story. But your chances are much higher with code than with abstract expectations or whining about "modern" and "nowadays" this or that.