GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[D. D. Brierton]

I remember that a while ago GTK2 support was committed to Emacs CVS. Did
that make it into 21.3.1, or is it not ready for primetime yet? I'm just
asking because I'm running Red Hat Linux 9, and I grabbed and installed
the 21.3.1 packages from Rawhide (they install and run wothout problems,
if anyone else was pondering doing the same) and it is still compiled with
the old (Athena?) toolkit. Should I send an email to RH suggesting they
try enabling the GTK2 stuff, or is that not ready yet? (If it isn't, is
there a guesstimate when it might be ready?)

Also, is there any way yet to get Emacs 21.3.1 to use anti-aliased fonts
that the recent versions of XFree86 allow for?

Best, Darren

-- 
======================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren@dzr-web.com           www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
======================================================================

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[David Kastrup]

"D. D. Brierton" <darren@dzr-web.com> writes:

> I remember that a while ago GTK2 support was committed to Emacs
> CVS. Did that make it into 21.3.1,

No.  21.3 is a bugfix release.

> or is it not ready for primetime yet?

I am using it currently, but it is still the developer version with
its own sets of bugs.  None that would make Emacs less stable than
typical run-of-the-mill editors, but decidedly less than customary
for Emacs.  I manage an occasional core dump when doing heavy duty
work.

> Also, is there any way yet to get Emacs 21.3.1 to use anti-aliased
> fonts that the recent versions of XFree86 allow for?

Not even the developer version renders its main text area fonts via
GTK unless I am mistaken, so I guess the answer is no.  The title bar,
menu bar and the menus themselves, however, _do_ appear antialiased to
my eye.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[D. D. Brierton]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:54:17 +0200, David Kastrup wrote:

> "D. D. Brierton" <darren@dzr-web.com> writes:
> 
>> I remember that a while ago GTK2 support was committed to Emacs
>> CVS. Did that make it into 21.3.1,
> 
> No.  21.3 is a bugfix release.
> 
>> or is it not ready for primetime yet?
> 
> I am using it currently, but it is still the developer version with
> its own sets of bugs.  None that would make Emacs less stable than
> typical run-of-the-mill editors, but decidedly less than customary
> for Emacs.  I manage an occasional core dump when doing heavy duty
> work.

Thanks for clarifying, David. So I guess 22.x is a more realistic
timeframe for GTK2 support as standard?

>> Also, is there any way yet to get Emacs 21.3.1 to use anti-aliased
>> fonts that the recent versions of XFree86 allow for?
> 
> Not even the developer version renders its main text area fonts via
> GTK unless I am mistaken, so I guess the answer is no.  The title bar,
> menu bar and the menus themselves, however, _do_ appear antialiased to
> my eye.

Yes, I remember from discussions on the group that the actual main text
area will probably never use GTK2/Pango for rendering text as Emacs has too
many specialised requirements that simply aren't in GTK2/Pango. But ultimately
the fonts themselves are being rendered by X aren't they? And antialiasing
is in XFree86 itself, via freetype or Xft or something (sorry for the
vagueness but the internals of X gives me the hebegebes). So can we expect
at any time soon to see Emacs being able to use anti-aliased fonts?

The thing is, that when none of my apps were antialiased I didn't really
notice so much, but now practically everything is, Emacs is beginning to
give me a headache. Relative to everything else on my screen its fonts are
really hard to read.

Best, Darren

-- 
======================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren@dzr-web.com           www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
======================================================================

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[Stefan Monnier]

>>>>> "D" == D D Brierton <darren@dzr-web.com> writes:
> many specialised requirements that simply aren't in
> GTK2/Pango. But ultimately the fonts themselves are being rendered by
> X aren't they? And antialiasing is in XFree86 itself, via freetype or Xft
> or something (sorry for the vagueness but the internals of X gives me the
> hebegebes). So can we expect at any time soon to see Emacs being able to
> use anti-aliased fonts?

Patches welcome.


        Stefan

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[D. D. Brierton]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:02:06 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> Patches welcome.

:-)

Stefan - seriously, if I could I would. I would *love* to contribute to
something like Emacs, and if I was capable I would make the time to do it.

But, and please be patient with my naivety, does that mean that getting
emacs to hook into the new font rendering abilities of XFree86 is really
hard? Or is it just that the core developers are too busy working on more
pressing issues in emacs?

Best, Darren

P.S. I hope you din't take any of my earlier comments to be gripes.
They're not - I was just curious.

-- 
======================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren@dzr-web.com           www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
======================================================================

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[Stefan Monnier]

> Stefan - seriously, if I could I would. I would *love* to contribute to
> something like Emacs, and if I was capable I would make the time to do it.

I don't think it takes much special expert skill to contribute.  You can
contribute things like typo-fixes, improve the manual, better organize the
NEWS entries.  And then there are  ways to contribute to actual code without
being an expert programmer either.

> But, and please be patient with my naivety, does that mean that getting
> emacs to hook into the new font rendering abilities of XFree86 is really
> hard? Or is it just that the core developers are too busy working on more
> pressing issues in emacs?

I just don't know of anybody working on it.  I don't think people work on
issues because they are pressing in general, but rather because they find
it important/interesting/entertaining/...
I'm pretty happy with my 6x13 fixed font, so I'm not going to spend
my time on anti-aliasing although I agree it would be nice to have.


        Stefan

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[D. D. Brierton]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:21:49 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> I don't think it takes much special expert skill to contribute.  You can
> contribute things like typo-fixes, improve the manual, better organize the
> NEWS entries.  And then there are  ways to contribute to actual code without
> being an expert programmer either.

Oh, that's interesting. Where do I go to find out more?

-- 
======================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren@dzr-web.com           www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
======================================================================

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> I don't think it takes much special expert skill to contribute.  You can
>> contribute things like typo-fixes, improve the manual, better organize the
>> NEWS entries.  And then there are  ways to contribute to actual code without
>> being an expert programmer either.
> Oh, that's interesting. Where do I go to find out more?

http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/emacs will tell you how to get the
CVS code where you can find the etc/NEWS file, the manuals,
the source elisp code, ...

You'll immediately see that the NEWS file is right now just a long list
of things with no structure and is thus inconvenient for new users
who can't easily skip things they're not interested in.

You can also read, re-read, re-re-read the manual and send us patches
for typos, or point out places where the doc is difficult to understand,
or incomplete, or out-of-date, or plain wrong.

Same thing for the docstrings, of course.  Passing the various elisp
packages through ispell is also a good idea.  Passing them through
checkdoc-current-buffer is also a good idea (although it requires more
skill and judgment to decide whether a warning should be fixed or not).

You can do the proofread the elisp manual, which will also help
you to get acquainted with the actual code, so you can start sending
us patches to the code.


        Stefan

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[D. D. Brierton]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:59:17 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/emacs will tell you how to get the
> CVS code where you can find the etc/NEWS file, the manuals,
> the source elisp code, ...
> 
> You'll immediately see that the NEWS file is right now just a long list
> of things with no structure and is thus inconvenient for new users
> who can't easily skip things they're not interested in.
> 
> You can also read, re-read, re-re-read the manual and send us patches
> for typos, or point out places where the doc is difficult to understand,
> or incomplete, or out-of-date, or plain wrong.
> 
> Same thing for the docstrings, of course.  Passing the various elisp
> packages through ispell is also a good idea.  Passing them through
> checkdoc-current-buffer is also a good idea (although it requires more
> skill and judgment to decide whether a warning should be fixed or not).
> 
> You can do the proofread the elisp manual, which will also help
> you to get acquainted with the actual code, so you can start sending
> us patches to the code.

Okay, thanks for the info. I think the NEWS file and the manual are the
obvious places for me to start. I'll be especially suited to pointing out
which bits are hard to understand. I wouldn't hold your breath for any
code patches from me, however!

-- 
======================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren@dzr-web.com           www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
======================================================================

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[Miles Bader]

"Stefan Monnier" <monnier+gnu.emacs.help/news/@flint.cs.yale.edu> writes:
> I'm pretty happy with my 6x13 fixed font, so I'm not going to spend
> my time on anti-aliasing although I agree it would be nice to have.

While current GTK2/FT2 font anti-aliasing looks great for typical
variable-width fonts, places where it gets used for fixed-width fonts
(e.g., gnome-terminal) look notably worse to me than versions using
non-anti-aliased fonts.

I'm not entirely sure why this is; some possibilities that come to mind:

  (1) FT2 doesn't render these fonts* well for some reason

  (2) They aren't hinted well (though at least Andale Mono seems hinted
      quite well actually)

  (3) Something about the usage of fixed-width fonts makes the artifacts
      of anti-aliasing (e.g. occasional fuzzy edges and uneven brightness)
      more objectionable than with variable-width fonts

  (4) I think I tend to use fixed-width fonts at smaller point sizes,
      as the number of columns visible often matters more with them,
      and anti-aliasing tends to look pretty bad at such point sizes

  (5) ?

* `These fonts' being the fixed-width fonts usable with FT2 on my
  system, e.g., Luxi Mono, Kochi Gothic, various versions of Courier,
  Andale Mono.

-Miles
-- 
A zen-buddhist walked into a pizza shop and
said, "Make me one with everything."

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[D. D. Brierton]

On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:55:47 +0900, Miles Bader wrote:

> While current GTK2/FT2 font anti-aliasing looks great for typical
> variable-width fonts, places where it gets used for fixed-width fonts
> (e.g., gnome-terminal) look notably worse to me than versions using
> non-anti-aliased fonts.

Well, this is probably just horses for courses, but on my Dell i8200
laptop with 1600x1200 ultra-sharp display Luxi Mono and Andale Mone both
look *fanatstic* anti-aliased. I'm curious to see how the new Bitstream
Vera fonts that were released officially today (or was it yesterday?) look
with the new freetype and fontconfig which supposedly have improved
hinting that will make Vera look even better.

-- 
======================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren@dzr-web.com           www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
======================================================================

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[Kai Großjohann]

"D. D. Brierton" <darren@dzr-web.com> writes:

> Thanks for clarifying, David. So I guess 22.x is a more realistic
> timeframe for GTK2 support as standard?

I'm guessing it might be 21.4 or 21.5.  (It's not clear whether there
will be another bugfix release after 21.3.)  I'm guessing that 22.x
is still quite a way off.
-- 
file-error; Data: (Opening input file no such file or directory ~/.signature)

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[David Kastrup]

"D. D. Brierton" <darren@dzr-web.com> writes:

> On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:54:17 +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
> 
> > "D. D. Brierton" <darren@dzr-web.com> writes:
> > 
> >> I remember that a while ago GTK2 support was committed to Emacs
> >> CVS. Did that make it into 21.3.1,
> > 
> > No.  21.3 is a bugfix release.
> > 
> >> or is it not ready for primetime yet?
> > 
> > I am using it currently, but it is still the developer version with
> > its own sets of bugs.  None that would make Emacs less stable than
> > typical run-of-the-mill editors, but decidedly less than customary
> > for Emacs.  I manage an occasional core dump when doing heavy duty
> > work.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying, David. So I guess 22.x is a more realistic
> timeframe for GTK2 support as standard?

No, 21.4.  I certainly hope that 21.3 is the last bug fix release and
21.4 will be the new feature release.  There are no major new
features, just a lot of little things and additions all over the
board, so it would be strange to call the next release 22.x.  Even if
somebody cleaned up the color and image handling.

> The thing is, that when none of my apps were antialiased I didn't
> really notice so much, but now practically everything is, Emacs is
> beginning to give me a headache. Relative to everything else on my
> screen its fonts are really hard to read.

Try for different fonts: large fonts designed pixel by pixel instead
of being some low-resolution rendition of print fonts.  I use the
standard 10x20 fonts, and they are very nice to work with, crisp,
well-shaped and with constant two-pixel width stems, meaning that the
diagonal fillin effects are much ameliorated.  There are some
screenshots from my setup at the home page of preview-latex
<URL:http://preview-latex.sourceforge.net> (shameless plug).  The text
portions in the first screen shot are 10x20, while the math consists
of (antialiased ;) images and is not relevant for the discussion.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[Glenn Morris]

David Kastrup wrote:

> I certainly hope that 21.3 is the last bug fix release and 21.4 will
> be the new feature release.

Probably not:

http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2003-04/msg00165.html

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[D. D. Brierton]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:19:10 +0200, David Kastrup wrote:

> Try for different fonts: large fonts designed pixel by pixel instead
> of being some low-resolution rendition of print fonts.  I use the
> standard 10x20 fonts, and they are very nice to work with, crisp,
> well-shaped and with constant two-pixel width stems, meaning that the
> diagonal fillin effects are much ameliorated.  There are some
> screenshots from my setup at the home page of preview-latex
> <URL:http://preview-latex.sourceforge.net> (shameless plug).  The text
> portions in the first screen shot are 10x20, while the math consists
> of (antialiased ;) images and is not relevant for the discussion.

Thanks, David, that's a good tip. I'll miss the italicisation of comments,
but at least I won't be getting a headache anymore.

Best, Darren

-- 
======================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren@dzr-web.com           www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
======================================================================

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[Kai Großjohann]

"D. D. Brierton" <darren@dzr-web.com> writes:

> Thanks, David, that's a good tip. I'll miss the italicisation of comments,
> but at least I won't be getting a headache anymore.

FWIW, I like the ETL fonts that are part of the GNU intlfonts
package.  The 16-pt version is smaller than 10x20, but works really
well for me.
-- 
file-error; Data: (Opening input file no such file or directory ~/.signature)

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[Matthew Kennedy]

"D. D. Brierton" <darren@dzr-web.com> writes:

> the fonts themselves are being rendered by X aren't they? And antialiasing
> is in XFree86 itself, via freetype or Xft or something (sorry for the

I think that this is right. Search through the emacs devel mailing
list. Someone had indeed started to work with Xft/freetype and even
posted (or linked to, I forget) some preliminary code.

Matt

-- 
Matthew Kennedy

Re: GTK2 support in Emacs 21.3.1?

[d2003xx]

"D. D. Brierton" <darren@dzr-web.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.04.17.12.44.44.596279@dzr-web.com>...
> I remember that a while ago GTK2 support was committed to Emacs CVS. Did
> that make it into 21.3.1, or is it not ready for primetime yet? I'm just
> asking because I'm running Red Hat Linux 9, and I grabbed and installed
> the 21.3.1 packages from Rawhide (they install and run wothout problems,
> if anyone else was pondering doing the same) and it is still compiled with
> the old (Athena?) toolkit. Should I send an email to RH suggesting they
> try enabling the GTK2 stuff, or is that not ready yet? (If it isn't, is
> there a guesstimate when it might be ready?)
> 
> Also, is there any way yet to get Emacs 21.3.1 to use anti-aliased fonts
> that the recent versions of XFree86 allow for?

I had already got 21.3.50 work fine with gtk2. But gtk2 is only used
in the UI (menu, ..), not in the place where you edit text, so.....

BTW, if you really want AA fonts, try console version of emacs with
mlterm (http://mlterm.sf.net)