From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 07:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5bb3d3f0-b7d6-4279-a3db-bc220474de72@default> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536418391 31404 195.159.176.226 (8 Sep 2018 14:53:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 14:53:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: hw@adminart.net, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, spacibba@aol.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: rms@gnu.org, Noam Postavsky Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 08 16:53:06 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fyebh-00082b-U3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 16:53:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43019 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyedn-0004S2-Vi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 10:55:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48301) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyedA-0004B2-Jh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 10:54:37 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyed9-000811-Ep for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 10:54:36 -0400 Original-Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:38136) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyed4-0007mP-Ti; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 10:54:31 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w88En6Tj106194; Sat, 8 Sep 2018 14:54:23 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=rZhzWrVt38f0+Ol/IyAFBKNEfIif9stUim+7KcoJ7eM=; b=Hp/5en6eYZDyIRbXjgRm4oayXuvjH9baKzVJ4fYkGQCl95BDgvNiQpDNqxnKAMD3Y5Ix 3tycTMbJnH6DfFYgD7mRvusGelE4AAL/icFnQEqfGodxTPBgLqTPIOjn80aw9ZmpmTDV h4fjpi1q+y2kJsfTIoRVBwOvp1UXFjyr89uTZJ/nkZgeYAnChv64v6t0COuVX65E2yys DgArXDjYuEhAFO1aYx29Td/0MZJX/CD54E8Q8rtuUUVweWqHcJneZ0MKcGs2IQ7kDFEo MIXJ4SzwC2OBsMd95R5btVXpzZ5mClO/oje/eyMZQwFLNk+yTS7mHh6Vm30UF/T2UVmV 9Q== Original-Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2mc5ut0y6p-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 08 Sep 2018 14:54:23 +0000 Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w88EsLWh025480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 8 Sep 2018 14:54:21 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w88EsJNE023379; Sat, 8 Sep 2018 14:54:20 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4735.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9009 signatures=668708 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1809080162 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.86 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229491 Archived-At: > It seems to me that the people who like delete-selection-mode > are those who are used to some similar behavior in some other > editor and have not truly got used to Emacs. FWIW, that's not my case. My case is the opposite: I was used to "old" Emacs, e.g., pre transient-mark-mode. When `delete-selection-mode' came along I tried it and appreciated it immediately. I had no problem getting used to it. Dunno why. Perhaps simultaneously, or soon thereafter, I started to use other apps that had similar behavior. But I did not use them before using `d-s-m' in Emacs. I used `d-s-m' long before I ever used Emacs on MS Windows, for example. Anyway, I think you're right about most other people who use `d-s-m'. It's likely that they got used to the behavior first outside Emacs. That's probable, simply because many users came to Emacs later and the behavior was already ubiquitous outside Emacs. > They have two possible paths to follow: get used to Emacs, "Get used to Emacs" has nothing to do with it. That's almost insulting, I think. > or stay in the middle. We can provide various features to > make Emacs serve each group.=20 > But here we have a proposal to make the defaults serve cater > primarily to those who don't want to get used to Emacs,=20 I think that's an awful way to express it. What is "Emacs", that these people supposedly don't want to get used to? Emacs to me includes `d-s-mode'. To me, it's just as (un)reasonable to say that those who don't want `d-s-m' to be the default "don't want to get used to Emacs." Neither makes sense. This is not about assimilating immigrants to some dominant culture, and bothering over the question about what to do with those who just "don't want to get used to it" - whether to give them tourist visas, make their short stays comfortable, and not make them adapt. That's the wrong way to look at this, IMO, but that's kind of what I hear you suggesting. (But I hope I'm wrong, and this does really surprise me coming from you, who have typically taken a very positive and fair moral stance.) > rather than those who want to get used to Emacs, > and also at the expense of experienced Emacs users. I don't think either default behavior would be at the expense of experienced Emacs users. It's trivial to set one's preference about this in an init file. I've been doing it for decades. Not a big deal. This is only about what the default behavior should be. That should have no effect on experienced Emacs users. It's not helpful, I think, to cast this as being about people who do or don't "want to get used to Emacs." Putting it that way betrays, at best, a misunderstanding, I think. I vote for making `d-s-m' the default because I think it makes Emacs better - like `transient-mark-mode'. Can't people just opt into it? Sure, and that's been the case for years. It will likely remain the case for many more years, I expect. Why make it the default? No great reason, I think. More people are likely to "get used to Emacs with it". More existing Emacs users are likely to make use of it (maybe). But there's no _compelling_ reason to turn it on - or off - by default, IMO. > I am against making delete-selection-mode the default. Got it. And I am for it. (I wonder where we each stood initially when the question was raised about turning on `transient-mark-mode'?) It's fine and normal for different people to feel differently about such things, and even to feel strongly. I feel (fairly) strongly that `cua-mode' should not be turned on by default, for instance. But most of the same arguments that some are making here for `d-s-m' have been made also for `cua-mode'. To me, those two are very different, especially wrt how they affect the rest of Emacs. `d-s-m' has little to no effect on the use of other keys etc. `cua-mode' conflicts deeply with much of the rest of Emacs (IMO). That's why my arguments for turning on `d-s-m' by default don't focus on most people being already used to that behavior, from outside Emacs. That's the most common argument here in favor of `d-s-m', but it's not mine. I think it is good behavior, and good especially for Emacs. I picked it up after using Emacs for years without it - because I found it helpful. That it facilitates going back and forth between Emacs and other apps is a nice thing, but it's no compelling argument. `cua-mode' would also make it easier to go back and forth, and I'm against that. Does it sometimes trip me up inside Emacs or outside it, when I try to use `C-s' or `C-f' mistakenly? Yup. But I still don't want to use `cua-mode' in Emacs, and I still don't think it should be turned on by default. Just one opinion.