From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Tweaking t-m-m to make room for d-s-m Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:18:22 -0700 Message-ID: <5F1D87251C98412EADC1187ABFCC3E8D@us.oracle.com> References: <87sk7pzqsp.fsf@ambire.localdomain> <8739zps45s.fsf@mean.albasani.net> <87mxxw6c7b.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20100326092833.19294vuz9efv5qg4@webmail.mnet-online.de> <33DBCF2DFF71401DB0861E66EC29ED2B@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1269638535 8480 80.91.229.12 (26 Mar 2010 21:22:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:22:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: mathias@mnet-mail.de, 'David Kastrup' , 'Stefan Monnier' , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Lennart Borgman'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 26 22:22:10 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NvGyk-0007FM-6L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:22:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44457 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NvGyh-00063l-8z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:22:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NvGvm-0004jK-Fj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:19:02 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=57619 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NvGvl-0004iB-AO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:19:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NvGvj-0000a1-Gh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:19:01 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet12.oracle.com ([141.146.126.234]:47937) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NvGvj-0000Zq-BD; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:18:59 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by acsinet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o2QLItv8029112 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:18:56 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o2QE9lCf011200; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:18:54 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt008.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 120688601269638303; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:18:23 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.73.76) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:18:22 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcrNIYHfwn7NbHWfQ/W+D2CwSweE0QAA8d4A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4BAD24BF.012E:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122728 Archived-At: > >> Couldn't C-x SPC be used to activate the region (without changing > >> point and mark)? It seems unused and is easier to type then > >> Alan's suggestion. -- Mathias > > > > C-z > > I think that would be a very bad idea since C-z seems to be used as > undo in most editing environments. And C-z is currently `suspend-frame' in Emacs. So what? Why is one conflict over what C-z means better than the other? Or would you forbid Emacs from using C-z altogether? No, I know, you would prefer C-z and all the rest to be CUA by default. ;-) CUA is so very different from Emacs that I see no need to consider such conflicts. Emacs does not sync with CUA's C-c, C-x, C-v, ESC,... Why should we treat CUA's C-z with special respect? Arguments that Emacs should do something by default _only_ because vi (e.g. Viper) or CUA does it are non-starters, with me at least. Wrt delete-selection mode, I was clear that I would not support it as the default for Emacs if the only reason were that new users expect it. I explicitly cited CUA as a counter-example. I support d-s-mode mainly because I think it is useful for Emacs users generally, and certainly not just because it coincides with what new users expect. Not so, CUA. There is a logic behind the CUA keys, yes. Those who came up with CUA didn't do so without thought. But it is a logic that takes as its starting point that the set of editing operations is just about summed up by those few operations: cut, copy, paste, undo. Under such an assumption it is not a bad idea to put all of those frequently used operations together within easy reach. But Emacs's use of keyboard keys blows the "half-dozen editing operations" scenario out of the water. AFAICS, the _only_ reason for Emacs to conform to CUA would be to have a better fit with the outside world. For me, that is not a sufficient reason.