From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: update intro to Emacs Lisp programming Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 15:54:37 +0900 Message-ID: <5C62F3FC-7B77-43E5-A907-4060DA0E0219@gmail.com> References: <80DB6796-41FE-4090-B1DD-BF5AE3F4D0CF@scratch.space> <83zi16ofny.fsf@gnu.org> <6A8BB190-FA64-4697-AFDA-EFBEB4886230@scratch.space> <90addb33-6797-b203-4a67-a2a6c201bd81@cs.ucla.edu> <97CEED22-57CE-4715-9239-1557F38AD994@gmail.com> <376AD40E-4EEC-4DC6-ADDA-4E594EAFE1DE@gmail.com> <87bmddvvj8.fsf@mbork.pl> <87in7juhc6.fsf@mbork.pl> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D26A2C4C-432D-4E7C-9828-6B36BE9B1A72" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1526799446 22705 195.159.176.226 (20 May 2018 06:57:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 06:57:26 +0000 (UTC) To: Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun May 20 08:57:22 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fKIHR-0005pd-GE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 May 2018 08:57:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45431 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fKIJY-0003gr-FU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 May 2018 02:59:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47801) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fKIEy-0000Gv-11 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 May 2018 02:54:49 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fKIEu-0002dO-EU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 May 2018 02:54:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl0-x231.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231]:35516) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fKIEu-0002c1-5A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 May 2018 02:54:44 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl0-x231.google.com with SMTP id i5-v6so6932214plt.2 for ; Sat, 19 May 2018 23:54:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=g9Fmz7K0jleI6PiANir4gsoTSPnmBM8Gvy1iBNETuVo=; b=HAkO6odQxMMBdcEMsAXz/6FBed5pz1B15GIXW+6JYO0lXz8bnRI+ew1IjgvMSUZXGf mjih2kVgeXuwxgDVI09G1Aa5t7fi5TsFCzeCbKPdJCchWecIStyDGiDE5x/NRPfSWPjp 95b1LyMgKynyqTvJ+uPG9o2y+zik245w8IXcNMfNKXmIpQll3DRXjK5jnJrhiNotWBcF XCrrcuSM9xcO+oehZdDNC+HX13DhvtLCvtP3fui9mrmz1x4fDg4f8HCvCWfVYwTlwfLy dz3S8gGziIiVfHSr4M/4iPDMQmIrue5SoHKRJk3P1+ekqQprJHZZ9n5JJOcHdTDd8TYV Zh5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=g9Fmz7K0jleI6PiANir4gsoTSPnmBM8Gvy1iBNETuVo=; b=hoCdFX+nNE5QPjZbaIClw5vm/+SRlbHx85JMUoDFw2+2UBifiJvQOMHgMJRAUWX/aH oSBpnvpDAzqslNhNPMdm4cEfU+fEZ0jyAPkzFS4nOJkUj2uipIOmDl4vbQ1GyLv967kI ciWVX4YW1G85vIHujHBs4ktLeFzr/ObYA2U6y4t8CY5X0/QaJKJ090rsyVS+s+IxTbre MTRbIJnDhyTlMs/2JOewuwBmqrbE/7SzXsGv0csLnnLBhVsNmniFl9MJD1PG7SGFyqTS HYICHypEytb4vZU7kxOSbtnuhbdNGAREudseahB/hR8YgZlUYkkiykPP1w5dHzKhtPw6 E7YA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwdkr/cE8OjTmROvlTkI5TVBkunGxy28lvA7sUgyElvTsTL54TCD CgmEmAETjdUWOVCRgLvvFxERmw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqt4WEBaHkwhl8m4rVXiO9TN/Z3vF2AB1dlOLzqAktrduvUVn6x/BkU2mU9fSouvouMcMsGzQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:24a5:: with SMTP id w34-v6mr15779012pla.52.1526799282431; Sat, 19 May 2018 23:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.7] (pl31219.ag0304.nttpc.ne.jp. [111.89.224.243]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v14-v6sm17794080pfn.105.2018.05.19.23.54.40 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 19 May 2018 23:54:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87in7juhc6.fsf@mbork.pl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:225465 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_D26A2C4C-432D-4E7C-9828-6B36BE9B1A72 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On May 20, 2018, at 12:38, Marcin Borkowski wrote: >=20 > The popular way of learning _when Elisp Intro > was written_ was studying books. Although the Elisp introduction is a special book, since you can read it = in Emacs and evaluate the code it displays right in the buffer. What I was saying was that in the 80's-90's, ie before computing became = widespread thanks to common access to the internet, books needed to be = self contained. So there was a lot of redundant contents between books = in inside the books. Now, thanks to the availability of all sorts of = programming tutorials in all sorts of media, hyperlinking and other = niceties, it is much easier to learn about the concepts of computing = (variables/loops/conditions/ etc.) and then to try to apply that to any = given language, without that knowledge making you a computer programmer. As a summary to what I wrote earlier, plus some extra: 1) What Richard requested and that is relatively urgent: the Emacs Lisp = Introduction should be first checked for factual errors (an expert is = needed there), 2) it needs to be edited to trim all the verbosity that is not required = anymore (maybe cut 1/3) 3) it needs to be better linked to the Reference because there are code = examples in the Reference that you don't have access to when you check = a function docstring. There should be links to the function description = in the Reference *and* links to the various chapters. 4) there is a need to add a lot more exercices so that the learner can = explore a lot more from what has been explained, possibly exercices that = relate to "modern" computing domains 5) the structure needs a bit of dusting too Jean-Christophe Helary ----------------------------------------------- http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune --Apple-Mail=_D26A2C4C-432D-4E7C-9828-6B36BE9B1A72 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On May 20, 2018, at 12:38, Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> = wrote:

The popular = way of learning _when Elisp Intro
was written_ was studying books.

Although = the Elisp introduction is a special book, since you can read it in Emacs = and evaluate the code it displays right in the buffer.

What I was saying was that in the 80's-90's, ie = before computing became widespread thanks to common access to the = internet, books needed to be self contained. So there was a lot of = redundant contents between books in inside the books. Now, thanks to the = availability of all sorts of programming tutorials in all sorts of = media, hyperlinking and other niceties, it is much easier to learn about = the concepts of computing (variables/loops/conditions/ etc.) and then to = try to apply that to any given language, without that knowledge making = you a computer programmer.

As a = summary to what I wrote earlier, plus some extra:

1) What Richard requested and that is relatively = urgent: the Emacs Lisp Introduction should be first checked for factual = errors (an expert is needed there),
2) it needs to be edited = to trim all the verbosity that is not required anymore (maybe cut = 1/3)
3) it needs to be better linked to the Reference because = there are code examples in the Reference that you don't  have = access to when you check a function docstring. There should be links to = the function description in the Reference *and* links to the various = chapters.
4) there is a need to add a lot more exercices so = that the learner can explore a lot more from what has been explained, = possibly exercices that relate to "modern" computing = domains
5) the structure needs a bit of dusting too

Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune


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