From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Chad Brown Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Bikeshedding go! Why is unbound? Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:29:02 -0800 Message-ID: <5C2BB094-26D9-4807-A3A0-985DBAC5FFBE@mit.edu> References: <87sjx7z7w4.fsf@telefonica.net> <83pqsbmf6j.fsf@gnu.org> <87k4ijz07h.fsf@telefonica.net> <2460D97DEA4047B3B9DF92C4A80981EF@us.oracle.com> <57BF13882D6E494286547F293FE9D03B@us.oracle.com> <3F4DBCDA95C84539A162423B934037DE@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1294864174 5361 80.91.229.12 (12 Jan 2011 20:29:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:29:34 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Stuart Hacking' , =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22=27=D3scar_Fuentes=27=22?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Lennart Borgman' , 'Deniz Dogan' To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jan 12 21:29:26 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pd7Js-0002YW-W7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:29:26 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54679 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Pd7Jp-0004Nm-Ts for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:29:21 -0500 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=46592 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Pd7Jg-0004Lm-5J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:29:16 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pd7Jd-0007zo-0K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:29:11 -0500 Original-Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-7.mit.edu ([18.7.68.36]:52430) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pd7Jc-0007zb-TU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:29:08 -0500 X-AuditID: 12074424-b7b0bae000000a05-ad-4d2e0f14713a Original-Received: from mailhub-auth-3.mit.edu ( [18.9.21.43]) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-7.mit.edu (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 8F.CD.02565.41F0E2D4; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:29:08 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by mailhub-auth-3.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id p0CKT7PQ022682; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:29:07 -0500 Original-Received: from [10.0.1.2] (c-24-18-117-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [24.18.117.102]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as yandros@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id p0CKT34N018454 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:29:05 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <3F4DBCDA95C84539A162423B934037DE@us.oracle.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAARcg5Bc= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:134472 Archived-At: Since we've admitted that we're bikeshedding... On Jan 12, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Drew Adams wrote: > Same argument for all of the other Windows keys: Either this is an argument on principles, or a cost/benefit trade-off. Mr. Dogan is clearly talking about the cost/benefit trade-off based on usability and opportunity cost. Mr. Adams is trying to make an argument on principle. The problem with Mr. Adams' argument is that it applies *at least* as strongly against any sort of Emacs on Windows, at all. For example: > Emacs is a dish you learn to appreciate. MacDo it isn't. There is no = royal or > fast-food road to fine cuisine, fine music, or anything else rich and = deep. Since you're talking about Emacs on Windows, you're *already* standing inside the `MacDo'. You're not talking about fine cuisine or freedom; you're debating whether to order from the bargain menu or splurge on the Big Mac. >> 4. No one is saying we should bind M-f4 because it is unused. It's >> just that it could have a very useful default binding for Windows >> users which just happens to be unused today. >=20 > OK, good. But there are plenty more "very useful default bindings for = Windows > users". You give Johnny this one by default and he thinks it's unfair = that you > don't also give him that one. And he's got a point there... That sounds like a perfectly good time to teach Johnny the lesson that you arbitrarily assert should only be taught one `step' earlier. By your argument, however, we should be teaching Johnny to avoid Windows altogether. *Chad