From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Joel J. Adamson" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Failing to see the allure of Emacs Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 13:27:35 -0400 Organization: University of North Carolina Message-ID: <5987.1273080455@chondestes.bio.unc.edu> References: <877hp5e2op.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87pr2u7ie3.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <9uudnY0F7J_qFjfWnZ2dnUVZ8oCdnZ2d@posted.visi> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1273096873 1886 80.91.229.12 (5 May 2010 22:01:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 22:01:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: djc@resiak.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu May 06 00:01:11 2010 connect(): No such file or directory Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O9meR-00013P-JZ for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 00:01:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40229 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1O9lzP-0007u6-Gk for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 05 May 2010 17:18:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1O9iNp-0006ln-GJ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 05 May 2010 13:27:41 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=44908 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1O9iNn-0006lE-V8 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 05 May 2010 13:27:41 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O9iNl-0000Yt-MJ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 05 May 2010 13:27:39 -0400 Original-Received: from chondestes.bio.unc.edu ([152.2.67.61]:42406) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O9iNl-0000Yl-Ee for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 05 May 2010 13:27:37 -0400 Original-Received: from chondestes.bio.unc.edu (chondestes.bio.unc.edu [127.0.0.1]) by chondestes.bio.unc.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o45HRZ0l005988; Wed, 5 May 2010 13:27:36 -0400 In-reply-to: <9uudnY0F7J_qFjfWnZ2dnUVZ8oCdnZ2d@posted.visi> Comments: In-reply-to "akaiser@visi.com" message dated "Wed, 24 Mar 2010 23:00:03 +0100." X-Image-URL: http://www.unc.edu/~adamsonj/favicon.ico Face: /home/joel/.face X-Milkshake: Drainage! X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3; GNU Emacs 23.1.1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:73480 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry I'm coming into the game so late, I think my university has been withholding mail from this list. I have a few points to add to the discussion. akaiser@visi.com wrote: > I can read source code and I do; but there's a lot of source code, and > most of it is unrewarding reading. I can use info, but I don't like > it. Please don't tell me "use info", because info is designed and > intended not for reading, but for brief, casual online reference, and > that is its cognitive organization.=20=20 Those ("brief, casual online reference") are called man pages. An info manual is actually a printed book, laid out for reading *the whole thing*. It is, in many ways, the opposite of a man page. Take any GNU Manual and read it from the introduction and you'll notice that it starts with concepts first. There are very clear standards about how to write these manuals[1]. And whenever I take the time to read one from the beginning it pays off hugely. Then when people say "How do you know how to do that?" I say "I read the manual." Also, if you really want to figure out how to work in Emacs, you can go get a book about it[2]. If you don't "get" Emacs, that's fine. Go back to using Eclipse or BBedit or whatever you like[3]. I think the reason people like me like Emacs is because it is in line with their way of thinking. One that includes always learning as much as you can. Another thing to note is that when I first loaded Emacs (on Windows) I didn't "get it" either. But after I read the tutorial and worked with it a little bit, I knew that it was The Right Thing. Mainly because I already had experience with Unix and remembered a time when I might have used Emacs ten years previously (i.e. the commands were familiar). Also, you don't have to do everything in Emacs. I just happen to use mainly Emacs and Firefox, because my work consists mostly of coding, email and looking things up on the web. I can accomplish most of that just using Emacs. If your work is different, then that's your life and no one should tell you to "just get it."[4] My last comment is that you mentioned "going back to GUI." Are you using a version of Emacs that doesn't have a GUI? If you are, you're missing a HUGE advantage of Emacs. For one the menus have the key bindings printed on the far right. For another, using Emacs with the mouse is much more pleasurable and productive than using many other (supposedly GUI-oriented) programs. You can do things with the mouse in Emacs that you just can't do in other programs[5]. I noticed you're using Windows, so try using Emacs on a Unix-like system and you'll notice the difference. Copying and pasting with the mouse is way easier; you can drag text from other applications and drop it into Emacs; you can navigate tags and do lots of other things with Speedbar. The only thing missing is dragging and dropping text in Emacs, but I don't really miss it. Emacs has an excellent GUI. Joel Footnotes:=20 [1] http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/ [2] http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596006488 [3] I won't make the suggestion that you go back to vi; I can't wish that on another person without it weighing heavily on my conscience [4] On the other hand, you'd be surprised how much work you actually can get done this way ;) [5] Show me the command for deleting a whole line with a single double-click in Microsoft Word. Then show me how to go back three occurrences of the word "word" in fewer than six keystrokes (without typing the word itself). Word! =2D-=20 Joel J. Adamson Servedio Lab University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill FSF Member #8164 http://www.unc.edu/~adamsonj --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkvhqoQACgkQdjuynxXap4SM3QCcCLK7bbbO28HaeXtTo7HGEf/I gicAnihsa5r+bcfylfq8B+Iy/3MhMHlG =COZ3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--