* Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website
@ 2016-07-11 0:54 Clément Pit--Claudel
2016-07-11 7:31 ` Adding a Fabrice Popineau
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Clément Pit--Claudel @ 2016-07-11 0:54 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Emacs developers; +Cc: Nicolas Petton
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Hi emacs-devel,
I tend to hear the same arguments against Emacs all the time. Maybe we could have an FAQ about them on the beautiful new website? (And is this discussion welcome on emacs-devel?)
The top three I get are, from least to most frequent:
* I'd love to use Emacs, but (I hear) it's very slow to start
(Answers include 'Not if you load packages properly, i.e. if you install them using package.el', 'Starting the GUI version is slower than the command line version', and 'Using an Emacs daemon makes Emacs resume instantly')
* The keybindings are scary
(Answers include CUA-mode and viper/evil)
* I could learn Emacs, but vi(m) is more useful because it's available everywhere
(Answer is Tramp, which I've found people to be very impressed by)
Ideally, if people like the idea of an FAQ, we could discuss top items to include; I'm not too interested in starting a thread about Emacs vs. the world.
Cheers,
Clément.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding a
2016-07-11 0:54 Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website Clément Pit--Claudel
@ 2016-07-11 7:31 ` Fabrice Popineau
2016-07-11 7:58 ` Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website Oleh Krehel
2016-07-11 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Fabrice Popineau @ 2016-07-11 7:31 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
Clément Pit--Claudel <clement.pit <at> gmail.com> writes:
> * I'd love to use Emacs, but (I hear) it's very slow to start
> (Answers include 'Not if you load packages properly, i.e. if you
> install them using package.el',
> 'Starting the GUI version is slower than the command line version',
> and 'Using an Emacs daemon makes Emacs
> resume instantly')
I am always surprised by people themselves surprised to hear that it is not a
problem.
I am a Windows user, Emacs starts with Windows. When I quit my job,
I put my laptop in hibernation, and I resume when I come home.
Same thing the other way around.
Basically, Emacs starting time is not a problem because
Emacs is not an editor you quit. And even without using a daemon,
there is always emacsclient.
Fabrice
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website
2016-07-11 0:54 Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website Clément Pit--Claudel
2016-07-11 7:31 ` Adding a Fabrice Popineau
@ 2016-07-11 7:58 ` Oleh Krehel
2016-07-12 5:08 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-11 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Oleh Krehel @ 2016-07-11 7:58 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Clément Pit--Claudel; +Cc: Nicolas Petton, Emacs developers
Clément Pit--Claudel <clement.pit@gmail.com> writes:
> The top three I get are, from least to most frequent:
>
> * I'd love to use Emacs, but (I hear) it's very slow to start
> (Answers include 'Not if you load packages properly, i.e. if you
> install them using package.el', 'Starting the GUI version is slower
> than the command line version', and 'Using an Emacs daemon makes Emacs
> resume instantly')
>
> * The keybindings are scary
> (Answers include CUA-mode and viper/evil)
>
> * I could learn Emacs, but vi(m) is more useful because it's available everywhere
> (Answer is Tramp, which I've found people to be very impressed by)
That's a great summary, I see the exact same three points over and over.
It would be great to have these points very visible on the Emacs'
website.
A thought that was recently out there is the comparison of not Emacs
vs. Vim, but of Emacs vs. Notepad++. The latter is a magnitude more
popular than Emacs and magnitude less powerful. However, it does a great
job of addressing the above 3 points:
- Starts up reasonably fast by default.
- Has well known bindings of Notepad by default.
- Easy to install on Windows.
One more point that's important to most users is that it has
browser-like tabs and a nice theme, all by default.
So the idea I had for making Emacs more accessible is to:
- Add `notepad-mode' (to either ELPA or Core) that derives from
`cua-mode' and further simplifies the bindings by e.g. rebinding
"C-f", "C-b", "C-n", "C-p", "C-o", "C-t" etc. to stuff like
`find-file', `save-buffer', `isearch', `switch-to-buffer'.
It would also switch to a more pleasant theme than the default.
- Add `notepadify' command (to Core) that creates/replaces ~/.emacs to
this content:
(notepad-mode)
The idea of `notepad-mode' is to appeal to the 0-config crowd that wants
things to "just work". It may seem that gathering more 0-config people
doesn't serve the Emacs project directly, since they're likely to have
low percentage of bug reports and code contribution. But the lower
percentage could be compensated by the sheer quantity of users.
regards,
Oleh
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website
2016-07-11 0:54 Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website Clément Pit--Claudel
2016-07-11 7:31 ` Adding a Fabrice Popineau
2016-07-11 7:58 ` Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website Oleh Krehel
@ 2016-07-11 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-11 15:05 ` Robert Weiner
2016-07-23 14:10 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
2 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-07-11 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Clément Pit--Claudel; +Cc: nicolas, emacs-devel
> From: Clément Pit--Claudel <clement.pit@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 02:54:55 +0200
> Cc: Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr>
>
> I tend to hear the same arguments against Emacs all the time. Maybe we could have an FAQ about them on the beautiful new website? (And is this discussion welcome on emacs-devel?)
>
> The top three I get are, from least to most frequent:
>
> * I'd love to use Emacs, but (I hear) it's very slow to start
> (Answers include 'Not if you load packages properly, i.e. if you install them using package.el', 'Starting the GUI version is slower than the command line version', and 'Using an Emacs daemon makes Emacs resume instantly')
>
> * The keybindings are scary
> (Answers include CUA-mode and viper/evil)
>
> * I could learn Emacs, but vi(m) is more useful because it's available everywhere
> (Answer is Tramp, which I've found people to be very impressed by)
>
> Ideally, if people like the idea of an FAQ, we could discuss top items to include; I'm not too interested in starting a thread about Emacs vs. the world.
We already have a FAQ, so if we want to provide this information, I
think it should be added to the existing FAQ.
Thanks.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website
2016-07-11 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-07-11 15:05 ` Robert Weiner
2016-07-23 14:10 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Robert Weiner @ 2016-07-11 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Clément Pit--Claudel; +Cc: emacs-devel
On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> The top three I get are, from least to most frequent:
>>
>> * I'd love to use Emacs, but (I hear) it's very slow to start
Ask them how long their brain takes to start up and how often they
shut it down and restart it. Tell them Emacs is like that.
If they don't understand the parallel, then they may never be a good
user candidate :-)
>> * The keybindings are scary
Maybe because there are many of them, but similarly to the first point
above, people who do not care for logically arranged structures that
provide powerful capabilities will not be good candidates for usage.
Those who do appreciate such things can easily be convinced with a bit
of investigation. Emacs has the most logical and repeated use of key
bindings of virtually any program in use today.
>> (Answers include CUA-mode and viper/evil)
Yes, you can emulate pretty much anything they might be comfortable
with already.
>>
>> * I could learn Emacs, but vi(m) is more useful because it's available everywhere
>> (Answer is Tramp, which I've found people to be very impressed by)
Having one location with pre-built, easily one click downloadable and
installable Emacs packages for all major platforms certainly would
help in such regard.
>>
>> Ideally, if people like the idea of an FAQ, we could discuss top items to include; I'm not too interested in starting a thread about Emacs vs. the world.
Emacs is for people who want an `environment' that continues to
empower them across time. vi and similar tools are for people who
want point tools that augment another environment that they use all
the time.
Bob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website
2016-07-11 7:58 ` Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website Oleh Krehel
@ 2016-07-12 5:08 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-23 15:31 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2016-07-12 5:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Oleh Krehel; +Cc: nicolas, clement.pit, emacs-devel
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> That's a great summary, I see the exact same three points over and over.
> It would be great to have these points very visible on the Emacs'
> website.
It would be useful to post these points,
but let's not post them in the form of responses to hostile
questions.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website
2016-07-11 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-11 15:05 ` Robert Weiner
@ 2016-07-23 14:10 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
2016-07-23 14:48 ` Nicolas Petton
1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Clément Pit--Claudel @ 2016-07-23 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: nicolas, emacs-devel
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On 2016-07-11 10:34, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Clément Pit--Claudel <clement.pit@gmail.com>
>> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 02:54:55 +0200
>> Cc: Nicolas Petton <nicolas@petton.fr>
>>
>> I tend to hear the same arguments against Emacs all the time. Maybe we could have an FAQ about them on the beautiful new website? (And is this discussion welcome on emacs-devel?)
>>
>> The top three I get are, from least to most frequent:
>>
>> * I'd love to use Emacs, but (I hear) it's very slow to start
>> (Answers include 'Not if you load packages properly, i.e. if you install them using package.el', 'Starting the GUI version is slower than the command line version', and 'Using an Emacs daemon makes Emacs resume instantly')
>>
>> * The keybindings are scary
>> (Answers include CUA-mode and viper/evil)
>>
>> * I could learn Emacs, but vi(m) is more useful because it's available everywhere
>> (Answer is Tramp, which I've found people to be very impressed by)
>>
>> Ideally, if people like the idea of an FAQ, we could discuss top items to include; I'm not too interested in starting a thread about Emacs vs. the world.
>
> We already have a FAQ, so if we want to provide this information, I
> think it should be added to the existing FAQ.
Hi Nicolas,
Thanks; don't you think putting this information in the existing FAQ would drown it, though? There are over 100 questions in there.
Clément.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website
2016-07-23 14:10 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
@ 2016-07-23 14:48 ` Nicolas Petton
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas Petton @ 2016-07-23 14:48 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Clément Pit--Claudel, Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel
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Clément Pit--Claudel <clement.pit@gmail.com> writes:
Hi Clément,
> Thanks; don't you think putting this information in the existing FAQ
> would drown it, though? There are over 100 questions in there.
I agree.
There are already (partial) instructions on the download page of the
Emacs website[1]. I'm in favor of adding whatever is missing to that
page.
[1] https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/download.html
Cheers,
Nico
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website
2016-07-12 5:08 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2016-07-23 15:31 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Clément Pit--Claudel @ 2016-07-23 15:31 UTC (permalink / raw
To: rms, Oleh Krehel; +Cc: nicolas, emacs-devel
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On 2016-07-12 01:08, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> > That's a great summary, I see the exact same three points over and over.
> > It would be great to have these points very visible on the Emacs'
> > website.
>
> It would be useful to post these points,
> but let's not post them in the form of responses to hostile
> questions.
You're right, of course :) Thanks for pointing this out.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
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2016-07-11 0:54 Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website Clément Pit--Claudel
2016-07-11 7:31 ` Adding a Fabrice Popineau
2016-07-11 7:58 ` Adding a "misconceptions about Emacs" FAQ on the website Oleh Krehel
2016-07-12 5:08 ` Richard Stallman
2016-07-23 15:31 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
2016-07-11 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-07-11 15:05 ` Robert Weiner
2016-07-23 14:10 ` Clément Pit--Claudel
2016-07-23 14:48 ` Nicolas Petton
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