From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: how to turn off automatic curly-quoting? Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 14:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5681a732-5741-4f56-b3d7-cb1edb739d32@default> References: <<36f6e67e-45d9-4eca-8302-ad9a06d138f1@default>> <<83fv41v6fh.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1438552102 19331 80.91.229.3 (2 Aug 2015 21:48:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 21:48:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 02 23:47:59 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZM16p-0006oy-Vg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 23:47:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56882 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZM16p-0004b5-3M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 17:47:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42035) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZM16d-0004ax-DU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 17:47:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZM16c-0006o6-0M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 17:47:43 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:18485) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZM16Y-0006nj-5M; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 17:47:38 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t72LlaHS007233 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 2 Aug 2015 21:47:37 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t72LlaFn024871 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 2 Aug 2015 21:47:36 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t72LlaMm007020; Sun, 2 Aug 2015 21:47:36 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83fv41v6fh.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:188305 Archived-At: > > I thought that the recent move to using curly quotes was > > going to be optional for users. But so far, it seems to > > be hard-coded. E.g., in `describe-function'. >=20 > Please be more specific about what do you think is hard-coded > in 'describe-function'. It's hard to respond to such a vague > request/claim. Below, please. > > Please tell us how a user can turn off this purportedly > > optional curly-quote behavior - everywhere. >=20 > Again, "everywhere" is too broad. Not for me, it's not. I'm one user who wants to turn it off=20 _everywhere_, just as it was before this change. I would like a user option that restores the "Classic Emacs" behavior of `...' instead of '...' that we've enjoyed for 40 years. > My best guess is that you want to customize > 'help-quote-translation', but please verify that it is > what you want. It seems to be. Thanks. But you tell me. Does it restore the behavior as it was - everywhere? IOW, does it effectively remove this feature of replacing `...' by curly-quoting everywhere that the replacement is done? If it does, then great. If it does not, then not so great. > If it is, you will find it mentioned in NEWS, I see it now. I saw the manual updated for curly quoting, but with no mention of this option. And grepping Lisp shows it only in cus-edit.el (not relevant). Its handling is evidently only in C code (I don't have that code locally). > so if that entry needs to be amended, please tell what > is missing from it. The main problem with the option is its default value. This feature should be opt-in, not opt-out, IMHO. Please give us "Classic Emacs" by default, and let those who are offended by `...' and want something fancier opt for that by customizing the option. Please consider also changing the option values so that you can use `M-x set-variable` in a reasonable way (i.e., without needing to know that ?` is 96 etc. - you cannot type ?` at the prompt). Character values are not helpful in such a context. Also, why is the name about "translation"? Shouldn't this option just be about what style is used for quoting Emacs terms? I don't see it as only about "help", though I suppose you can interpret that term as broadly as you like. It is about how Emacs talks about itself. Is that just "help", or is it something more? Anyway, "help" is not the biggest problem with the name. "Translation" speaks perhaps to the implementation changes made recently, but it is not a user-facing way to describe what the option controls. I would sooner imagine "style" or "format" or some such term in the name than "translation". The user should not need to think that s?he is translating something or that s?he is asking Emacs to translate something. That presupposes that there is something original that can be translated. That's what the new code does, perhaps (translates a default format to another one). But that's not how a user should need to think about it. [Another problem (but it will continue to be a problem, I guess) is that in some fonts it can be difficult to tell what the different quote chars are, when reading about the possible option values.] > > Oh, and please put this info in the Emacs manual, as well > > as NEWS. >=20 > The above variable is in the ELisp manual already. It is not in the most recent Windows binary I have (from 7/03). If it was added since then, great; thanks. Hopefully it is also mentioned (e.g. cross-referenced) each time the manual mentions such quoting, and in particular in the two nodes where curly quotes are mentioned. > In any case, contents of manuals is not finalized until > Emacs is in pretest. Yes, I know. What I found was that the feature of curly quoting in this way was documented (`electric-quote-mode', node `Quotation Marks'), but there was (so far) nothing about `help-quote-translation'. To me, how to turn it off is at least as important as advertising the new feature. Anyway, even if it was only a late arrival or an afterthought, I'm glad the option was added (and documented). As for the question about hard-coding curly quotes in help: I was obviously mistaken. It turns out that the many printings of ' and ', are each wrapped in `substitute-command-keys', which (coded in C) is presumably where these chars are in fact *not* printed if `help-quote-translation' has a sane value. None of this was obvious to me from examining the Lisp code. FWIW: The doc string of `substitute-command-keys' is not too bad. But I find it confusing that it refers to "left and right quote characters" as something other than the "quotation mark" character referred to in the doc of `help-quote-translation'. IOW, please try to more clearly distinguish the notion of abstract, configurable left and right quote characters (and use the qualifier "single") from the concrete left and right single quotation mark chars (aka curly quotes). Otherwise this becomes difficult to read, if not altogether unintelligible. Paul & company would presumably be the first to say that ` and ' are not "left and right quote characters". Some better way of talking about this needs to be found, IMO.