all messages for Emacs-related lists mirrored at yhetil.org
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: Daniel Colascione <dancol@dancol.org>
To: "Przemysław Wojnowski" <esperanto@cumego.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs rewrite in a maintainable language
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 05:52:13 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <561A5B7D.1050100@dancol.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <561A19AB.5060001@cumego.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1827 bytes --]

On 10/11/2015 01:11 AM, Przemysław Wojnowski wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> 
> Recently I was going through Emacs C code and immediately one thing come
> to my
> mind: "Did anyone consider rewrite it a more maintainable language?" :-)
> 
> Did anyone consider pros/cons of having base code in other language?
> AFAIK maintenance cost of C code is pretty high, because the code is
> tangled,
> has no tests and the language has its limits (e.g. no namespaces, no
> abstractions, etc.). Maintaining that and adding new features will be
> harder
> and harder.

As others have pointed out, most of Emacs is written in Emacs Lisp.

As for the rest: a common understanding among a certain crowd these days
is that C is a broken, legacy language that nobody really understands.
But the operating system kernel and window system you used to compose
your message are a giant C programs. Linux and Xorg are blasphemies
against hipster software engineering. Both generally work fine, as does
Emacs.

The Emacs C core isn't going anywhere. You're welcome to try to rewrite
it, but if C really were such an albatross, I'd expect at least one of
Hemlock, JEmacs, Ermacs, Ymacs, Climacs, or EdWin to have become a
viable contender by now. Yet here we are, talking about GNU Emacs.

We can improve the Emacs core by making it less "tangled" (e.g.,
abstracting away frame functions so that we can support more than one
window system) and by writing better tests for some of the hairier bits
of functionality (e.g., the recently-broken syntax engine). These
potential improvements have nothing to do with language choice.

I'd rather people focus on fixing long-standing problems and adding new
features than satisfying some aesthetic impulse by reimplementing the
same old functionality in a new language.


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 819 bytes --]

  parent reply	other threads:[~2015-10-11 12:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 250+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-10-11  8:11 Emacs rewrite in a maintainable language Przemysław Wojnowski
2015-10-11  8:17 ` David Kastrup
2015-10-11 22:02   ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-10-11 22:14     ` John Wiegley
2015-10-11 22:37       ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-10-11 22:37       ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-10-11 22:49         ` John Wiegley
2015-10-11 22:51         ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-10-11 23:12         ` Drew Adams
2015-10-12  2:43     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-12 15:35       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-12 21:30         ` Daniel Colascione
2015-10-12 20:01     ` Richard Stallman
2015-10-11  8:54 ` Alexis
2015-10-11 10:53   ` Przemysław Wojnowski
2015-10-11 11:23 ` Thomas Koch
2015-10-11 13:11   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-10-11 13:36     ` David Kastrup
2015-10-11 13:39       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-10-11 13:55         ` David Kastrup
2015-10-11 14:03           ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-10-11 12:52 ` Daniel Colascione [this message]
2015-10-11 12:59 ` Fabrice Popineau
2015-10-11 17:25 ` John Wiegley
2015-10-11 18:32   ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-10-11 19:14     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-11 19:43       ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-10-11 19:53         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-11 20:13           ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-10-12  2:33             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-12  3:59               ` Paul Eggert
2015-10-12  8:12                 ` Steinar Bang
2015-10-12  9:36                   ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-10-12 10:20                     ` David Kastrup
2015-10-12 12:23               ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-10-12 16:08                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-12 20:00         ` Richard Stallman
2015-10-13  2:36           ` Rustom Mody
2015-10-12 10:56       ` Michael Heerdegen
2015-10-11 21:52     ` John Wiegley
2015-10-12  7:14       ` David Kastrup
2015-10-12 12:48     ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-12 13:22       ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-10-12 14:18         ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-12 15:04           ` David Kastrup
2015-10-12 18:24         ` John Wiegley
2015-10-12 19:21           ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-10-12 19:39             ` John Wiegley
2015-10-12 19:46               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-12 19:58                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-12 20:11                   ` John Wiegley
2015-10-12 20:42                     ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-10-12 20:46                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-10-13 14:57                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-13 16:22                       ` John Wiegley
2015-10-13 16:40                         ` Drew Adams
2015-10-13 16:49                           ` John Wiegley
2015-10-12 20:40               ` Drew Adams
2015-10-13  4:18                 ` John Wiegley
2015-10-13  6:00                   ` immerrr again
2015-10-13 14:59                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-13  1:12               ` Óscar Fuentes
2015-10-13 10:01               ` David Kastrup
2015-10-13 15:12                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-13 15:20                   ` David Kastrup
2015-10-14 15:04                     ` Chris Patti
2015-10-14 15:34                       ` Jay Belanger
2015-10-16 12:25                   ` Guile-Emacs Ludovic Courtès
2015-10-16 12:03                 ` Emacs rewrite in a maintainable language Ludovic Courtès
2015-10-16 13:30                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-16 14:55                     ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2015-10-16 15:14                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-16 15:25                     ` Ludovic Courtès
2015-10-16 15:51                       ` David Kastrup
2015-10-16 14:29                   ` David Kastrup
2015-10-16 15:08                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-16 15:28                       ` David Kastrup
2015-10-16 16:05                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-16 15:31                       ` Ludovic Courtès
2015-10-16 16:11                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-16 19:34                           ` Przemysław Wojnowski
2015-10-16 19:51                             ` David Kastrup
2015-10-16 19:52                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-16 20:51                           ` Ludovic Courtès
2015-10-17  5:27                             ` David Kastrup
2015-10-17  7:20                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-17  9:44                               ` Ludovic Courtès
2015-10-17 10:24                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-18 10:22                                   ` Ludovic Courtès
2015-10-18 11:33                                     ` David Kastrup
2015-10-18 12:54                                       ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-18 13:17                                         ` David Kastrup
2015-10-18 14:40                                           ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-18 15:31                                             ` David Kastrup
2015-10-18 16:19                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-18 16:37                                           ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-18 16:44                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-18 17:06                                               ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-18 17:11                                                 ` David Kastrup
2015-10-18 17:36                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-18 17:52                                                   ` John Wiegley
2015-10-18 18:23                                                     ` Daniel Colascione
2015-10-18 18:35                                                       ` David Kastrup
2015-10-18 18:53                                                         ` Daniel Colascione
2015-10-18 19:03                                                           ` David Kastrup
2015-10-18 19:13                                                           ` Paul Eggert
2015-10-18 19:35                                                           ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-18 19:49                                                             ` Daniel Colascione
2015-10-19  7:59                                                               ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-19 10:50                                                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-10-19 10:59                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-19 11:31                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2015-10-19 12:04                                                                       ` David Kastrup
2015-10-19 11:24                                                                   ` David Kastrup
2015-10-20  4:18                                                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-10-20  7:36                                                                       ` David Kastrup
2015-10-20 10:17                                                                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-10-19 12:26                                                                   ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-19 12:53                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2015-10-19 17:43                                                                   ` Tom Tromey
2015-10-19 18:06                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2015-10-20  2:46                                                                       ` Tom Tromey
2015-10-19  8:46                                                               ` David Kastrup
2015-10-19  9:39                                                                 ` Przemysław Wojnowski
2015-10-19  5:33                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2015-10-26 11:01                                                             ` Alexis
2015-10-18 19:16                                                       ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-18 22:38                                                     ` Nicolas Petton
2015-10-20  7:34                                                       ` John Wiegley
2015-10-18 16:40                                           ` John Wiegley
2015-10-18 16:56                                             ` David Kastrup
2015-10-18 17:46                                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-10-19  7:45                                             ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2015-10-17 15:38                                 ` David Kastrup
2015-10-17 16:25                                   ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-17 16:43                                     ` David Kastrup
2015-10-17 17:00                                       ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-17 16:48                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-17 17:03                                       ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-17 17:08                                         ` David Kastrup
2015-10-17 17:10                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-17 18:31                                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-10-17 17:04                                     ` David Kastrup
2015-10-17 17:32                                       ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-17 17:42                                         ` David Kastrup
2015-10-17 18:34                                           ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-17 19:15                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-17 21:22                                               ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-10-18  0:23                                                 ` John Wiegley
2015-10-18 15:53                           ` Richard Stallman
2015-10-18 16:58               ` Tom Tromey
2015-10-18 17:40                 ` John Wiegley
2015-10-18 19:40                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-18 20:47                     ` David Kastrup
2015-10-19  3:55                   ` Tom Tromey
2015-10-20  7:33                     ` John Wiegley
2015-10-12 19:43             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-13  8:27               ` Przemysław Wojnowski
2015-10-13  8:52                 ` Gian Uberto Lauri
2015-10-13 10:19                 ` Tassilo Horn
2015-10-13 15:14                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-13 19:45                     ` Tassilo Horn
2015-10-13 15:05                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-13 16:09                   ` John Wiegley
2015-10-13 20:43                   ` Przemysław Wojnowski
2015-10-13 16:06                 ` John Wiegley
2015-10-13 20:20                   ` Przemysław Wojnowski
2015-10-13 21:22                     ` emacs IDE features (was: Emacs rewrite in a maintainable language) Andrés Ramírez
2015-10-13 22:13                       ` emacs IDE features John Wiegley
2015-10-14 11:11                         ` Phillip Lord
2015-10-16 23:13                           ` John Wiegley
2015-10-17  7:40                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-17 23:51                               ` John Wiegley
2015-10-18  0:48                                 ` Sacha Chua
2015-10-18  2:34                                   ` Xue Fuqiao
2015-10-18 17:05                                     ` Sacha Chua
2015-10-18 17:31                                       ` John Wiegley
2015-10-18 16:21                                   ` John Wiegley
2015-10-19 16:37                                   ` Christopher Allan Webber
2015-10-18 16:47                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-18 17:30                                   ` John Wiegley
2015-10-19 10:30                             ` Phillip Lord
2015-10-20  6:56                               ` John Wiegley
2015-10-13 22:10                     ` Emacs rewrite in a maintainable language John Wiegley
2015-10-12 23:00             ` Camm Maguire
2015-10-13  1:38               ` Alexis
2015-10-13  1:40                 ` Daniel Colascione
2015-10-13 23:34             ` Richard Stallman
2015-10-13 23:55               ` John Wiegley
2015-10-13  5:28           ` Ken Raeburn
2015-10-13  5:39             ` John Wiegley
2015-10-13 10:13               ` David Kastrup
2015-10-14  1:43                 ` Daniel Colascione
2015-10-13  6:49             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-10-12 13:50       ` David Kastrup
2015-10-12 15:17         ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-12 15:35           ` David Kastrup
2015-10-12 16:29           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-12 22:39           ` Paul Eggert
2015-10-13 11:27             ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-13 11:46               ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-10-13 12:02                 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-13 12:21                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-10-13 12:22                   ` Mathieu Lirzin
2015-10-13 13:52                     ` John Yates
2015-10-13 14:30                       ` David Kastrup
2015-10-13 16:26                         ` Andreas Schwab
2015-10-13 16:40                           ` John Wiegley
2015-10-13 14:38                       ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-13 13:06                   ` Sergey Organov
2015-10-13 14:19                     ` Artur Malabarba
2015-10-13 14:39                       ` David Kastrup
2015-10-13 15:21                         ` Artur Malabarba
2015-10-13 15:53                           ` David Kastrup
2015-10-13 16:09                             ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-13 16:23                               ` David Kastrup
2015-10-13 16:31                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-13 16:38                                 ` David Kastrup
2015-10-13 15:21                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-13 15:42                   ` David Kastrup
2015-10-13 15:32               ` Paul Eggert
2015-10-13 16:13                 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-13 21:02                   ` Andy Moreton
2015-10-14  8:15                     ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-14 13:28                       ` Andy Moreton
2015-10-14 16:18                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-14 10:22                     ` Przemysław Wojnowski
2015-10-14 10:56                       ` Tassilo Horn
2015-10-14 11:14                         ` Przemysław Wojnowski
2015-10-14 11:33                         ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-14 12:12                           ` Tassilo Horn
2015-10-14 11:46                         ` David Kastrup
2015-10-14 12:29                           ` Tassilo Horn
2015-10-14 11:21                     ` Mathieu Lirzin
2015-10-14 16:05                     ` John Wiegley
2015-10-13 16:13               ` John Wiegley
2015-10-12 15:09       ` Paul Eggert
2015-10-12 15:24         ` David Kastrup
2015-10-12 15:24         ` Oleh Krehel
2015-10-12 16:31           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-12 17:20         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-10-13 12:02           ` Marcus Harnisch
2015-10-13 23:38             ` Richard Stallman
2015-10-14  1:46             ` Daniel Colascione
2015-10-14 13:08               ` Marcus Harnisch
2015-10-12 16:18       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-10-12 17:47         ` Steinar Bang
2015-10-12 17:59           ` David Kastrup
2015-10-12 21:28       ` Daniel Colascione
2015-10-11 18:36   ` Przemysław Wojnowski

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=561A5B7D.1050100@dancol.org \
    --to=dancol@dancol.org \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    --cc=esperanto@cumego.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this external index

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git

This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.