From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: RCS, again: another removed functionality: undo last-checkin Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 20:36:19 +0300 Message-ID: <560D6F13.3090005@yandex.ru> References: <87oagx6tzz.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <55FF4026.2050004@yandex.ru> <83si68nu4i.fsf@gnu.org> <87eghsfd3m.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83k2rknr2c.fsf@gnu.org> <87mvwellmg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <56023A6C.3020302@yandex.ru> <5602BE3E.1050009@yandex.ru> <5602C4DE.8020105@yandex.ru> <560B4899.2070708@yandex.ru> <83y4fobegc.fsf@gnu.org> <560BC73C.4040403@yandex.ru> <83d1x0atb2.fsf@gnu.org> <560C9EDA.3040207@yandex.ru> <83vbar9hv3.fsf@gnu.org> <560D2CFD.50702@yandex.ru> <83a8s2agar.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1443723949 23781 80.91.229.3 (1 Oct 2015 18:25:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 18:25:49 +0000 (UTC) Cc: stephen@xemacs.org, dak@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rms@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 01 20:25:43 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhiY2-0008PA-2y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 20:25:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55066 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhiY1-0002rN-9q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 14:25:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41035) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhhmP-0004Py-CT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 13:36:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhhmK-0000pR-Cw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 13:36:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]:38677) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhhmK-0000p6-7W; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 13:36:24 -0400 Original-Received: by wiclk2 with SMTP id lk2so39040252wic.1; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 10:36:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VF/kfYb3oKw5/jSXkwun0MAv7zma6uZSNT2fvS7HlM0=; b=G1GV7PXhwkNnRm0SmpxP7JKld2sXFUv1RXz+DBCmMb4CoNk330BwE41Ym9cWhtfpOe INx/Fox5dOGkWXv05fHrj9BMRR+PxKLR1PJALO3IAxNI+t1oNybeZvg8nIbbEwA2Ty5z f+nluYYPbkn9J00/JLRJ7jq19GLY1wzpYkmpoqs/8rUrRw/is+eJtLNBNCWfdMilwSeG AG1RA9bU+vkdfEj2YKpaCvewo7bF0FdLfD4SJv2aExlPC3c/p/iu/QD5+s+WBegTGo9M HXuBKQ+jYoxpcuEZexV63jWllXitoYBgEG+fOKIFdlV59kHxQDlOFKrvaBim9AiJOseX ICAw== X-Received: by 10.180.89.41 with SMTP id bl9mr4475518wib.85.1443720983401; Thu, 01 Oct 2015 10:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [10.9.0.103] (nat.webazilla.com. [78.140.128.228]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id lf10sm7189942wjb.23.2015.10.01.10.36.21 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Oct 2015 10:36:22 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/41.0 In-Reply-To: <83a8s2agar.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:190576 Archived-At: On 10/01/2015 04:07 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > No. Existing features might make no sense if (a) they didn't make > sense when introduced (it happens!), You mean features that were useless or broken from the start? > or (b) if the reason for their > existence is no longer valid, like a program that is no longer > available, or operation that is impossible with today's platforms, or > so clearly unused that there's no doubt it could be still useful to > anyone. ...or became irreparably broken over time. That's a pretty high standard to consider a feature for removal. When I said "doesn't make sense", I meant sense in the context of the VC framework. Which supposedly has some internal logic, ergonomics, etc. > Breaking backward compatibility is about the worst crime package > maintainers could commit, in my opinion. (I know it's not shared by > many of the others.) This general opinion (and you're not alone holding it) is one of the most tedious parts of the Emacs ecosystem, IME. It's not that I *love* removing features, but being unable to do that at all makes the burden of a maintainer harder when making changes or adding new features. > It makes veteran users of a package feel like > second-class citizens whose needs and workflows can be disregarded all > too easily. Removing features is always a tradeoff. While no one wants to make old users sad, if their needs would still be achievable at the cost of workflow changes, we should be able to make that sacrifice. At some point in the future (distant, in all likelihood, so this is just a rough example), I imagine that would mean sacrificing support for antique VC backends entirely, in favor of simpler VC implementation, or better support of the newer backends. There's nothing stopping the veterans from adopting modern VCSes, you know.