From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master b533552 2/5: Documentation fixes re quotes Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 18:38:11 +0300 Message-ID: <55E86963.3060609@yandex.ru> References: <20150831061236.27796.57762@vcs.savannah.gnu.org> <55E3F3AD.2010602@yandex.ru> <55E3F6B6.20205@cs.ucla.edu> <55E3F88A.50003@yandex.ru> <55E3F9D7.6040601@cs.ucla.edu> <55E64B4B.3030006@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441294736 20842 80.91.229.3 (3 Sep 2015 15:38:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 15:38:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert , rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 03 17:38:55 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXWbC-0001Lz-Mk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 17:38:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49340 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXWbC-0000sJ-Gq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 11:38:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34341) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXWal-0000jQ-SZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 11:38:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXWai-0006Pr-LQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 11:38:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x232.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]:35390) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXWai-0006P5-Ai; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 11:38:20 -0400 Original-Received: by wicge5 with SMTP id ge5so78296072wic.0; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 08:38:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TA6dTZDGQAp17MvPuoW42yIvygPaKRjscHJTE4RRulw=; b=DrogvBK6SNhVYDkht3kG51Mwto2XtHawR40c23jkHkDUNwZDiCPeyGutjQy3gSKZmu VNRE4OGSnxh6rYAdgWRfuAldR+mks7wnpRFMyDWKDlUxebO4srpu/O0H+Ys3IWV8bWaS dJ5ipToxRRaeajW+Nx/sFjRBwl4higm214NdwNsJAMQXGhiNthBwTrZrc+j4osmL6SIU 0ew7edkkNqiq6r1mDjEzv4yX5LbnT4MlznCiwS0lQHb3ZMlC7+tuWpWtnL8l61jvN9oZ nJikd7NKfQzpsw4+ySqJXV5XsBRz21k2J56SZI7pV2dVarmcFQEehD4b1NChyCh5DVy6 oYtg== X-Received: by 10.180.108.39 with SMTP id hh7mr16390272wib.3.1441294698675; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 08:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [10.9.0.103] (nat.webazilla.com. [78.140.128.228]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id e8sm9590944wiz.0.2015.09.03.08.38.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 03 Sep 2015 08:38:17 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:40.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/40.0 In-Reply-To: <55E64B4B.3030006@cs.ucla.edu> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189513 Archived-At: On 09/02/2015 04:05 AM, Paul Eggert wrote: > More generally, though, I did not remove every single curved quote from > the tutorial. That is because it's fine if some programmers want to use > curved quotes in docstrings and diagnostics. These quotes have worked > for many years, and they now work even a bit better than they did > before, in the sense that they're now markup that is automatically > converted to grave quotes for old-fashioned users who prefer the grave > style. They aren't markup, because you insist that they "stand for themselves", which is as far from the concept of markup as it could be. > Using curved quotes in the source has technical advantages, as > the programmer sees the same quotes that typical users will see in the > next version of Emacs, which is a clear win. Nothing clear about that. Programmers are used to even larger levels of abstraction than quote translation. Which is relatively trivial. > or help buffers that quote `like this' in older Emacs versions, but > overall in many cases the benefits exceed the costs and it is a win [citation needed] > As far as the Emacs source code goes, because the master for a while had > an approach that required the use of curved quotes for proper markup, > and because I was using Electric Quote mode where it's easier to type > curved than straight quotes, I converted some diagnostics and > documentation source to use curved quotes. Even though you've been specifically asked not to. > Most (though not all) of > these curved quotes can now be converted back to grave quotes if someone > who hates, Hates, HATES curved quotes wants to take the trouble to do > that. Well, that's nice. Thank you for that chunk of pointless work that I (or someone else) will have to do. I take it there are no other things you'd prefer me to spend time on instead. > However, I doubt whether it's worth the effort, as the curved > quotes work fine in practice in the source, and really, why not give > them a try? In practice they might not be as bad as all that. The "work fine in practice" argument is weak. A vast number of approaches will work well enough if you don't care about increased complexity (something that Alan brought up), or further improvements that might be built on top of docstring markup.