From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master 9ce1d38: Use curved quotes in core elisp diagnostics Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:25:11 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55DB99C7.1060902@cs.ucla.edu> References: <20150816160149.9416.80132@vcs.savannah.gnu.org> <55D1043C.3030909@yandex.ru> <55D15899.2070105@cs.ucla.edu> <55D1C9CE.2060407@yandex.ru> <55D20EDF.5070906@cs.ucla.edu> <55D223CA.4080109@yandex.ru> <55D22A1F.8040508@cs.ucla.edu> <55D22CF4.9030608@yandex.ru> <55D2747D.10809@cs.ucla.edu> <55D317A9.6000805@yandex.ru> <55D42210.9070703@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1440455130 16708 80.91.229.3 (24 Aug 2015 22:25:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 22:25:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 25 00:25:24 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZU0B9-00087j-FI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 00:25:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57001 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZU0B8-0000Z4-Or for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:25:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39608) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZU0B4-0000Yt-W0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:25:19 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZU0Az-0008JJ-Va for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:25:18 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:54641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZU0Az-0008J2-Mx; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:25:13 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9311B1605A4; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id BisYs4_2af_J; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC94D160EF9; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:25:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id es_utJN841Tv; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B4F981605A4; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:25:11 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189134 Archived-At: On 08/24/2015 01:20 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > We could let the first argument to 'format' > be a symbol that specifies how to transform the format string. Something like that could work, yes. For example, instead of the current master's: (format-message FORMAT ARGS) we could have: (format 'message FORMAT ARGS) where 'message means "Format appropriately for message functions" and translates curved quotes to the user's preferred style. We can add support for other symbols or lists of symbols in place of 'message. format-message does have an advantage, though: it simplifies backward-compatibility implementation. For example, code intended to work reasonably well in older Emacs can do this: (unless (fboundp 'format-message) (defalias 'format-message 'format)) and doing this sort of thing would be somewhat trickier with (format 'message ...). So perhaps we should keep the (format-message ...) convenience function even if we also add (format 'message ...). > curly quotes and other non-ASCII characters in comments within Emacs ... [provide] no_practical_ benefit to anyone. This doesn't match my experience. In the past few weeks I've edited hundreds of diagnostics and docstrings in Elisp files, and in my environment curved quotes are significantly more practical than %< and %> would be. With %< and %>, I'd have to hit three or four keys to type a quote, and the digraphs would make it harder to quickly judge string length and alignment. In my environment curved quotes are also significantly better in strings than grave accent and apostrophe, as I can type curved quotes with single unshifted keystrokes, as compared to having to hit three keys to type either grave accent or apostrophe. Emacs should support environments that make curved quotes this easy; it shouldn't fight against them. Perhaps for other users and other environments %< and %> are better, and so it'd be OK to add support for %< and %> in format strings, and I can volunteer to do that if you think it'd be helpful. However, Emacs shouldn't *force* people to use %< and %> to get this functionality: there should be an easy way to quote intuitively, with quote characters standing for themselves in typical usage.