From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:24:33 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <558C7FA1.3020501@cs.ucla.edu> References: <87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org> <5581C29E.1030101@yandex.ru> <87r3p9fxm2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87k2v0fiji.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150619090225.GA2743@acm.fritz.box> <558436F3.8040307@cs.ucla.edu> <20150623222216.GC12232@acm.fritz.box> <5589E217.80609@cs.ucla.edu> <20150624172048.GB18124@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1435271106 3679 80.91.229.3 (25 Jun 2015 22:25:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 22:25:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 26 00:24:57 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z8FZo-0005yt-Oe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 00:24:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57629 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z8FZn-0008Ri-Ox for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:24:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33460) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z8FZY-0008RX-N4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:24:41 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z8FZT-0001RK-Hz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:24:40 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:40340) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z8FZT-0001Qo-9C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:24:35 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB91160840; Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id Jcs4TBWaT5_K; Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0136416084E; Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:24:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 01CpEis51ubD; Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D71CB160820; Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:24:33 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 In-Reply-To: <20150624172048.GB18124@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187537 Archived-At: >>> You could have had a subject like "Supersede ASCII quoting convention= in >>> doc strings" > >> That would have been misleading, as the patch did not supersede ASCII >> quoting. ASCII quoting still works, and is still supported. > > It would not have been misleading. Your aim is precisely to supersede > ASCII quoting. It's true that I'd prefer we adopt a simpler system that uses docstrings = largely=20 unchanged. But this approach was objected to vociferously, so the patch = in=20 question did not implement it. It would have been misleading to label th= e patch=20 as doing what I'd prefer. Instead, the patch was labeled to do what it a= ctually=20 did, which is what labels are supposed to do. > The very moment curly quoting starts appearing in source > files is when ASCII quoting will stop working properly. No, ASCII quoting still works properly, even though curved quotes are in = source=20 files now. There were a few curved quotes even in Emacs 24.5 source file= s, and=20 the sky did not fall. >>>> In contrast, you installed commit 52c3946c872c8bd96508f74cdda5cbb90c= 664306, an >>>> equally large change to user behavior, .... > >>> Not really. I simply made the new behaviour optional > >> No, your patch changed the default behavior for *Help* buffers. > > Paul, that's a really objectionable thing for you to do. You snipped > the second half of my sentence ", setting the default to "off".", I had written "you installed commit 52c3946c872c8bd96508f74cdda5cbb90c664= 306, an=20 equally large change to user behavior". You then objected "Not really. = I=20 simply made the new behaviour optional, setting the default to 'off'." Y= our=20 objection was an attempt to minimize the scope of your change, even thoug= h it=20 was indeed an equally large change to user behavior. The "Not really" in= your=20 objection was misleading. In hindsight I should have mentioned all this = in a=20 longer comment, and I should have included more of your quote, and my apo= logies=20 if my attempt to be brief misled anybody. I hope this further comment ha= s made=20 the main thrust more clear. > The point is, that with this new option, users can chose how they want > to see quotes, Yes, there seems to be reasonable agreement that users should have an opt= ion to=20 see quotes traditionally `like this' or in a curved-quote style =E2=80=98= like this=E2=80=99. As=20 users do have that option in the current master, perhaps we should move o= n to=20 the next topic.