From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:43:53 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <5585C279.3030607@cs.ucla.edu> References: <20150615142237.GA3517@acm.fritz.box> <87y4jkhqh5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <557F3C22.4060909@cs.ucla.edu> <5580D356.4050708@cs.ucla.edu> <87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org> <55826DCC.9040404@cs.ucla.edu> <55850208.3080605@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1434829455 10281 80.91.229.3 (20 Jun 2015 19:44:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 19:44:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: acm@muc.de, stephen@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, tsdh@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 20 21:44:04 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6OgN-0004dY-7H for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 21:44:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34545 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6OgM-0001OL-M8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:44:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33142) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6OgJ-0001OC-CF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:44:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6OgF-0003ZH-Oz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:43:59 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:42612) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6OgF-0003Yp-J6; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:43:55 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9D91607F2; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id Yp5okjHjcE8z; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F4D16080F; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:43:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id PR6t6tRuiZfU; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C7F891607F2; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:43:53 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187340 Archived-At: Richard Stallman wrote: > When you introduce Emacs to new users, do you teach them to edit Emacs > Lisp code? Not in the first day, but we have people use Emacs over a period of ten weeks, as part of a software construction course. A primary benefit of Emacs over editors like vim (which is what we've also used in the past) is its programmability. I want students to be able to read and understand the source code of the tools they're using. > I'm talking about the source code issue, but the reasons you give > seem to apply to the UI issue. Although they apply primarily to the UI, they also apply to source code. Previously a docstring couldn't unambiguously quote Lisp code containing ' or `. Now it can. Previously one could cut from a *Help* buffer and paste into a docstring; this remains true only because curved quotes now work in a docstring and so can be safely copied from a *Help* buffer to a docstring. Also, nonexperts read Lisp code at times, and we're better off simplifying the process of reading the code and becoming expert.