From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, 20385@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#20385: [PATCH] Support curved quotes in doc strings
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 14:13:58 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <55566196.40105@cs.ucla.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <55564460.4020208@yandex.ru>
On 05/15/2015 12:09 PM, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> Then there's no need to worry too much about the diagnostic messages.
>
No, that doesn't follow. For example, suppose that the display supports
curved quotes (the typical case) but we use some other format in the
source code. Then, cutting from diagnostic output and pasting into the
source code won't be intuitive and won't work without some Rube Goldberg
conversion.
In contrast, if we use curved quotes in the source, cutting and pasting
will work naturally. It's true that here if the display doesn't support
curved quotes (the atypical case) then cutting and pasting may not work
-- but that's not a problem we need to worry about, since it's rare
nowadays particularly among developers.
> What's there to explain? Quoting will work as before, it'll only be
> displayed differently (and users could even opt out of that).
That will all require explanation, indefinitely. And this won't be as
easy as one might think, particularly if opt-out is common.
>> For example, you can easily cut and paste from the UI into the doc
>> string source when composing a new doc string, which is something that
>> doesn't work well for either GCC or Coreutils.
>
> Why wouldn't that work in Emacs either way?
I suppose it might work in some cases (killing and yanking within a
single GUI Emacs, say) but not in others (cutting from one Emacs running
remotely under gnome-terminal and pasting into another in a different
locale). The other cases are common enough that they will be a
continuing hassle.
> The only place that seems like it'll have this problem is the Info buffers
This sounds backwards. Even now, one can cut curved quotes from an Info
file and paste them into a .texi file and it will work, on a typical
system with proper UTF-8 support (and assuming the latest Emacs on the
master branch and Texinfo 5). (Just to be clear, I'm not proposing that
we switch to this .texi style now -- it's not needed for proper use of
grave accent and apostrophe in our documentation, and so it's a separate
thing that can be deferred for many years.)
>> For example, the documentation for prettify-symbols-mode
>> uses UTF-8 curved double-quotes.
>
> Does it? I can't find that.
Sorry, I meant tildify-space. (I mixed up functions:
prettify-symbols-mode uses a different Unicode character, namely ≤.)
> But either way, allowing unicode in sources (why we do, obviously) and
> using unicode characters as ubiquitous markup are two very different
> things.
Yes, they are different in terms of degree. The existing minor uses of
UTF-8 in doc strings are merely evidence that UTF-8 works in doc
strings. Had these uses been there 20 years or go, or even 10, we would
have had significant problems in practice; but nowadays, UTF-8 is not a
problem.
> If we use rendering via font-lock, there will be no transition process.
I'm not so sure, given the cutting-and-pasting issues mentioned above.
But even if you're right there would still be a tradeoff: would we want
a trivial transition now to a complex and klunky approach long-term, or
a nontrivial transition now to a simple and intuitive approach
long-term? Let's strive for simplicity.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-05-15 21:13 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 102+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-04-20 18:39 bug#20385: [PROPOSED PATCH] Support quoting 'like this' in doc strings Paul Eggert
2015-04-20 19:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-21 0:18 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-21 0:53 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-21 1:14 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-21 1:30 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-21 1:58 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-21 3:45 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-21 14:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-21 18:04 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-21 18:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-21 19:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-21 19:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-21 20:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-22 7:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-22 13:52 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-22 13:59 ` Nicolas Petton
2015-04-22 14:52 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-22 23:36 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-23 0:23 ` Nicolas Petton
2015-04-23 6:45 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-23 9:14 ` Nicolas Petton
2015-04-23 10:22 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-23 11:15 ` Nicolas Petton
2015-04-23 17:32 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-23 18:23 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-23 19:38 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-23 20:07 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-23 20:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-23 23:24 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-24 0:24 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-24 4:47 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-23 19:47 ` Nicolas Petton
2015-04-23 19:57 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-23 2:19 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-23 6:45 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-23 14:51 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-23 15:32 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-23 17:11 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-23 19:55 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-23 20:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-23 20:13 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-24 6:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-24 3:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-24 6:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-24 13:43 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-21 18:44 ` Nicolas Petton
2015-04-21 20:30 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-22 0:49 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-22 23:37 ` Paul Eggert
2015-04-23 6:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-21 18:35 ` Ivan Shmakov
2015-04-21 18:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-21 19:37 ` Ivan Shmakov
2015-04-21 19:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.1406.1429745828.904.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2015-04-23 12:11 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-04-23 12:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-23 12:45 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-04-23 13:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <mailman.1407.1429745888.904.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2015-04-23 12:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-04-23 19:42 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-13 7:30 ` bug#20385: [PATCH] Support curved quotes " Paul Eggert
2015-05-13 12:16 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-13 15:13 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-13 22:33 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-14 3:24 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-14 10:49 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-15 7:49 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-15 17:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-15 18:54 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-15 19:09 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-15 21:13 ` Paul Eggert [this message]
2015-05-15 21:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-15 23:52 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-16 0:08 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-16 0:11 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-16 1:48 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-16 8:27 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-19 23:27 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-20 2:22 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-21 7:21 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-21 10:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-21 14:58 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-22 3:41 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-05-16 9:51 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-05-16 1:23 ` Drew Adams
2015-05-16 6:20 ` Paul Eggert
2015-05-16 7:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-05-14 7:10 ` missing charset for non-ASCII text/x-patch MIME parts in Thunderbird Ivan Shmakov
2015-05-14 8:28 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-05-14 8:28 ` bug#20385: " Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-05-14 7:10 ` Ivan Shmakov
2015-05-14 7:20 ` bug#20385: Support curved quotes in doc strings Ivan Shmakov
2015-05-14 14:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-05-14 20:05 ` Ivan Shmakov
2015-05-14 20:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-05-14 20:30 ` Ivan Shmakov
[not found] <<1429555155-4695-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
2015-04-20 20:16 ` bug#20385: [PROPOSED PATCH] Support quoting 'like this' " Drew Adams
[not found] ` <<jwvtwwabnhp.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<5535974D.9050207@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<jwvvbgqs2ud.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<5535C7F3.7020107@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<83618p5y9w.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<jwvk2x59x4g.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<83vbgp49ve.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<jwv8udl9syp.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<83pp6x45x5.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<5536ACB3.9040707@yandex.ru>
[not found] ` <<83lhhk4phe.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<fe3d90cd-056a-49a6-a049-6df07e710663@default>
[not found] ` <<87a8y0jmba.fsf@petton.fr>
[not found] ` <<6837d058-ba18-461b-8af6-2c4e6d767348@default>
[not found] ` <<55383081.4010106@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<87a8xzae0o.fsf@petton.fr>
[not found] ` <<55389500.8000404@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<878udj9pfq.fsf@petton.fr>
[not found] ` <<5538C7EC.9010105@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<877ft39juq.fsf@petton.fr>
[not found] ` <<55392C91.1010300@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<84f4aea9-c3ef-44c5-ac06-0df72d223e8c@default>
[not found] ` <<55394A2E.8020002@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<f978526c-c5e3-405d-ae75-63b9ed5d4537@default>
[not found] ` <<83lhhizjqw.fsf@gnu.org>
2015-04-23 20:15 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-24 6:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<55394E30.8040307@yandex.ru>
[not found] ` <<83oamezk77.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<4b159230-cd7e-4cb9-a778-3ad7ed2ae301@default>
[not found] ` <<83k2x2ys1b.fsf@gnu.org>
2015-04-24 14:11 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-24 14:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
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