From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: 20322@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:17:06 +0300 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <553115E2.6050809@yandex.ru> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83y4lr8bbf.fsf@gnu.org>
On 04/17/2015 10:26 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Yes, I know that. I'm saying that this default doesn't bother me, as
> long as the modes that I care about still default to non-nil.
It seems that you won't object to changes as long as they don't affect
your our experience, even if you'd just have to change one line in your
init.el.
I mentioned the default value because it's a technical consideration.
> I meant "need" as in "most users of that language already use spaces".
So, you're open to considering C and C++ in this context, too?
> I don't consider GitHub to be a representative sample for this matter.
Maybe not, but it's a sample we can research. And Emacs could do worse
than become more friendly to the modern-ish audience.
Do you have a better sample in mind?
> I don't see any complications. Doesn't everyone have their own hooks
> for every language they use, anyway? I know I do, since almost the
> first day I started using Emacs. That hook is the place where users
> could customize the variable, if they don't the defaults.
The members of those "everyone" shouldn't be bothered with a change in
one tiny default value anyway.
I think you're overestimating the savvy-ness of an average Emacs user.
Not every beginner is fine with writing Elisp (some spend years without
doing so), and the more effort a user's first steps in Emacs take, the
more likely they are to settle for something else, because they haven't
yet been properly exposed to Emacs's benefits yet.
That's why I think the default are important, and that they shouldn't
take the entrenched user base so much into account.
> See above; and it doesn't have to be a lambda function, of course.
> Mine has a name (my-c-stuff, if you want to know) and a doc string.
I also use hooks quite a bit in my init script.
> We are talking about programmers, for whom having a mode hook is not a
> problem.
Not necessarily Emacs Lisp programmers, though.
> I'm actually guessing they already have such a hook anyway;
> I cannot see how one can use a programming-language mode without a lot
> of customizations, and the place to do that is in a mode hook. This
> is normal, routine practice in Emacs.
The user options (and the Customize interface; I think we haven't given
up on it yet) should cover the core of what a user might want to change.
Here's the sum total of my current ruby-mode tweaks. One
`eval-after-load', but no custom functions in ruby-mode-hook:
(add-hook 'ruby-mode-hook 'flycheck-mode)
(add-hook 'ruby-mode-hook 'robe-mode)
(eval-after-load 'ruby-mode
'(progn
(define-key ruby-mode-map (kbd "C-c :") 'ruby-toggle-hash-syntax)
(require 'ruby-end)))
Plus a few installed packages, some of which use `add-hook' at the top
level. I do have one related `add-hook' with a lambda commented out
currently, but it's also tiny, and the above provide a satisfactory
experience already.
> I gave you my personal statistics on that: most of them use tabs. And
> I personally get annoyed whenever a project asks me to untabify my
> submissions (but abide, of course).
Untabifying (or tabifying) should happen automatically, via
project-local settings. There's even a cross-editor specification (as
well as an Emacs package) for this: http://editorconfig.org/
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-04-17 14:17 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 87+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-04-14 2:37 bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 3:07 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-14 14:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 15:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 15:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 15:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 20:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 21:43 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-14 22:17 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-15 1:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-15 2:08 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-15 4:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-20 14:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-20 19:26 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-20 22:09 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-21 1:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-21 19:25 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-21 19:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-22 15:02 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-22 15:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-22 15:23 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-22 15:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-22 15:49 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-21 20:27 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-21 20:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-22 13:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-22 14:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-22 16:47 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-11-02 18:18 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-02 20:37 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-02 21:03 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-02 21:18 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-02 21:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-02 21:29 ` John Wiegley
2015-11-02 23:31 ` Richard Stallman
2015-11-03 3:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-02 23:31 ` Richard Stallman
2015-04-15 14:31 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2015-04-15 16:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 2:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-17 4:58 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-17 13:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-17 7:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 8:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 14:17 ` Dmitry Gutov [this message]
2015-04-17 14:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 15:55 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-17 16:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 18:12 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-17 18:18 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-20 15:03 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-17 7:55 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-04-17 8:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 10:55 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-26 14:27 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-27 2:52 ` Richard Stallman
2015-12-27 3:21 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-27 15:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-12-27 16:10 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-27 16:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-12-27 16:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-30 4:47 ` John Wiegley
2015-12-30 11:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-30 12:15 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-30 19:18 ` John Wiegley
2015-12-31 0:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-31 1:17 ` John Wiegley
2015-12-31 1:26 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-31 2:48 ` John Wiegley
2015-12-31 6:30 ` Richard Stallman
2015-04-14 17:15 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-14 18:08 ` Nicolas Petton
2015-04-14 20:33 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 19:09 ` Achim Gratz
2015-04-14 21:58 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-15 2:33 ` Richard Stallman
2015-04-15 11:18 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-15 16:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-15 23:03 ` Dmitry Gutov
[not found] ` <<E1YiD8o-000318-H5@fencepost.gnu.org>
2015-04-15 15:29 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-14 14:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 14:40 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 15:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 15:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 16:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 17:22 ` Philipp Stephani
2015-04-18 2:55 ` Dmitry Gutov
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