From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jim Porter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [NonGNU ELPA] New package: llm Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2023 10:12:20 -0700 Message-ID: <54c21d90-8bd6-8723-9e33-d69179b37bd0@gmail.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16196"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Andrew Hyatt , rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 15 19:12:51 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qVxb8-000455-Nv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2023 19:12:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qVxak-0004Z9-Fh; Tue, 15 Aug 2023 13:12:26 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qVxai-0004Uq-HJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2023 13:12:24 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qVxag-00066n-9o; Tue, 15 Aug 2023 13:12:24 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1bc83a96067so34702335ad.0; Tue, 15 Aug 2023 10:12:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1692119540; x=1692724340; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/DrERSH8bdVgba17x8Earg9+m6ZOQaK37y615cotE+o=; b=UJ13fVKBREPn7aH++Xkr8Tm4BkAO0r3j9ghGDE8H/Pezmos3eS0dJqJvITBoOGAqdx HnFU+jqj+LrA1ZU7w/oFE16EojyEdTqYj4YCbQIFqbU+N26DhtiGloA4Z40pIjq5qsf5 7M0xi2+oPUOgIVRZX4ymj/4iWvU1pz2aS5klDWcFbE/RSsihzGCrOWyWhBz+8+GAIKrG juOkoCKam/8+ssk2Oohw1kE3yJ2DHOoaJxyE0lAGGm1B+px8tEL3tb8FHAvMnBzM85aZ CFIU3wFdTWh1twVhmuFMef9XF+518tLocOSxV/QV9sA/A1KKYAf2xHGz/QsUh+u03WXm mXZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1692119540; x=1692724340; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/DrERSH8bdVgba17x8Earg9+m6ZOQaK37y615cotE+o=; b=K3wncE452X+cXnbfgj569qgHSr4G9gaOQcs4iBeCTHYm4EN3tqlgJQJ2zO0DuWfVU2 zrTKySoauZyxAHee5pqBqNlPk4QH3ntSCZhl+IMbGFpiCo8bPRV1UY0LNf5KLASCatYN s5EVUvlT0frohN9fO6kYqg1Zgrbpnc++mr3mvm3NZRryVeYHvead33mG6a6JB4ZTnBAS O2vMjDdfycStIXFAXq71cNvSUa0WnFW+lsf2jYxRdQ5SX+eP58/y1Eo/oTQsVlBMfNLK 2dG0v+z7OUUd+1VFngmIKFSTvI/MmjlX0N1r07KeT5Tal0X7vTvgf8EkCS45FBQ2SaFk L8iQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxv7qKtDmR2sKRMLvt9z3J5aIR2McDOjgfPvQPrqofle6jv2zwX dUpKpgEg43HsuKUbxncVXIY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGgN30nZLXCBwHZiRq5dVOTPrcMZup8h4Y8fNcmwTTbFnBOCgk4SCjwFW7FjYmxmRTIcthlwQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:da92:b0:1bb:bc6d:457 with SMTP id j18-20020a170902da9200b001bbbc6d0457mr4537089plx.36.1692119539914; Tue, 15 Aug 2023 10:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com. [76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id s18-20020a17090330d200b001bdbe6c86a9sm8616719plc.225.2023.08.15.10.12.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 15 Aug 2023 10:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::633; envelope-from=jporterbugs@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x633.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:308767 Archived-At: On 8/14/2023 10:14 PM, Andrew Hyatt wrote: > I don't doubt that or disagree, I'd just rather us oppose it in > documentation or code comments, not during runtime. I'd be hesitant to add support for these LLMs even *with* a warning message at runtime. That's not to say there should never be a GNU project with support for any LLM, but that I think we should tread carefully. Among other things, I'm curious about what the FSF would say about the *models* the LLMs use. Are they "just data", or should we treat them more like object code? What does an LLM that fully adheres to FSF principles actually look like? I'm not personally aware of any official FSF stance on LLMs, so that would be the next step as I see it, before publishing any code. Again, that doesn't mean Emacs should never have an LLM package, just that some detailed guidance from the FSF would make it a lot clearer (to me, at least) how to progress. - Jim