From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? 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[180.21.82.168]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u6sm8688898pfm.10.2019.05.16.21.05.14 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 May 2019 21:05:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87r28xq0j1.fsf@telefonica.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.8) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::532 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120454 Archived-At: > On May 17, 2019, at 11:26, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: >=20 > Jean-Christophe Helary writes: >=20 >> If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one >> can get started right away, then I'm all for it. >=20 > "Instant gratification" means wanting things that require no learning > nor practicing nor understanding to be effectively used *right* *now*. There is another word for that (and the earlier wheel metaphor may have = escaped you), it is call "standardization". > It would be doubleplusgood if Emacs could be one of those things but, > alas, it is obvious that text editors still are on the class of things > that require certain effort to be used effectively. Please. Text editing is the most common task by at least an order of = magnitude in the IT world. Even for kids. > Maybe Emacs requires a bit more effort at the beginning, but it pays = off... at least on text manipulation tasks. Except that no. Check Eli's list of areas where emacs has fallen way = behind. There are all related to advanced text manipulation. > =46rom 1985 to 2010 (give or take a few years and discounting Java and > some other modern language) Emacs was the best programmer's editor on > the "by hackers, for hackers" category. I suppose that most current > users come from that period. Because they don't fit your narrative ? I've started trying emacs in the = mid 90's and the best pro editor I could find then that I could make = sense of was BBEdit. I'm still using it when I have no time to uncover = emacs' arbitrary idiosyncrasies. In fact, this discussion makes me = realize that the only reason I use emacs is because it is a lisp = environment and so I don't have to wait for developers to develop = something for me and I can write a few lines of lisp myself if needed. = Just like I write a few lines of AppleScript to solve trivial issues on = my Mac instead of buying a $5 hack (but I could write AppleScript to = automate BBEdit, except that it is less elegant than lisp). >> Access to free software should never be the sole privilege of "users >> who understand that gains require efforts". Quite the opposite. >=20 > Free Software is not a factor *today*, because most competitors are = Free > Software too. Even Visual Studio Code is MIT-licensed. Ummm. So you agree that emacs sucks until you reach a given yet = undefined enlightenment point and that free software is not a factor, so = why not plainly declare that emacs is for a self proclaimed elite and = then move on? > OTOH, we have the vim phenomenon. An "old thing" which is way more > peculiar than Emacs, No. Unless "peculiar" means "consistent". > but with a growing user base. Those who point out > the dificulties of new users to copy and paste or to save text to a = file > with Emacs, should ponder how vim has no problem requiring training = for > doing the most basic thing a text editor is supposed to do. "consistency" > Maybe, just maybe, having "kill & yank" instead "copy & paste" is not > the cause of Emacs' lack of appeal to the new generations. If that's your conclusion, you must have missed a few mails in the = thread. Eli clarified that a long time ago. Jean-Christophe Helary ----------------------------------------------- http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune