From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Have you all gone crazy? Was: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 18:44:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <53e8e1b2-1e81-4c31-878b-0c39ec886ee1@default> References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fvc8kdsp.fsf@gnu.org> <6e11cd85-09a0-4b7a-baa2-0c810bdebbce@default> <871tnsg0w7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87a92gii32.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419216319 5218 80.91.229.3 (22 Dec 2014 02:45:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 02:45:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 22 03:45:11 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2sze-0000EL-TE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 03:45:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38899 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2szd-0001uy-K6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:45:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57123) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2szS-0001r3-FJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:45:07 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2szJ-0001zD-Hs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:44:58 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:26107) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2szJ-0001xf-B0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:44:49 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id sBM2ihpp026685 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 22 Dec 2014 02:44:44 GMT Original-Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id sBM2ifbf005022 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 22 Dec 2014 02:44:41 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sBM2iekl005011; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 02:44:41 GMT In-Reply-To: <87a92gii32.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180458 Archived-At: > > On the contrary. The new phenomenon, if there really is > > one, is a relative *lack* of effort spent researching and > > filtering information. It is so simple to just ask others. >=20 > It is new. Before the internet, people relied on local expertise > and asking face to face, and if there was none, gave up. > StackOverflow and friends are basically the inverse of spam: > ask the universe at no cost to yourself. That mischaracterizes "StackOverflow and friends", I'm afraid. But yes, you get the point. It is more accurate to say that some people use StackOverflow & friends that way. Their attempts to do so are only moderately successful, however. Users of SO & friends who do not act that way are rewarded with more and better help in the long run. Another consideration is that asking a good question takes not only some up-front effort but also some experience and knowledge of how to express oneself clearly. And language (English) is sometimes an obstacle, if not a barrier. And in some of our countries the education system is not as good (for most) as it once was. It is actually a *good* sign that people, especially those who have difficulty expressing themselves, do not hesitate to ask when they have a question. We need a lot more of that. (In some contexts, especially in some fairly traditional, formal education settings, students are taught not to ask but to shut up and respect. It is a good thing that more young people do not hesitate to ask, in order to understand better. Question authority. Question anything.) And users can sometimes learn to ask better questions in such contexts, which generally means *first* asking Google, Emacs, and other resources oneself. And the feedback provided by StackOverflow & friends tends to help users get better at it, if they pay attention at all. Never has it been easier for an individual to "ask the universe". And that's a *good* thing. It's just that there are better ways to ask than to pose an undeveloped question on a question board. > I agree with you that not catering to those folks is the > right way to go. Among other things, in the rare case that > they offer contributions, they usually suck. ;-) Just do > what Emacs wants to do. We agree, but I would add this: Even users who reflexively ask poor questions, without any effort, can improve. As they learn how to ask better questions - which by definition require some up-front effort in research or at least more careful explanation - they will be rewarded. And they sometimes do become helpful contributors, giving back to others who have their own questions, etc. Emacs should not cater to such poor behavior. And it certainly should not accept it as a "new norm" that we must somehow get in sync with in order to attract new blood. But Emacs can (continue to) try to show the way. Improve Emacs manuals on the web, sure. But let's not forget to use that web presence to help users learn that the best way to consult the manuals is to *ask Emacs*. This is not obvious. There are few, if any, interactive contexts that are helpful the way Emacs is. People do not expect it, and they start out ignorant of it. Aiming *primarily* for perfectly interactive web versions of the manuals, even if we could emulate all of the Emacs Info features on the web, would be a mistake. Such improvement can be a goal, but another goal should be to make sure we point the way to the manuals in Emacs itself.