From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: martin rudalics Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:25:36 +0100 Message-ID: <52E401A0.1000101@gmx.at> References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390674375 9115 80.91.229.3 (25 Jan 2014 18:26:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:26:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 25 19:26:21 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W77vw-00059g-OU for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:26:20 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52128 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W77vw-00015f-5c for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:26:20 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59594) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W77vl-00014l-VE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:26:17 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W77ve-0004tz-Ge for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:26:09 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:50086) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W77ve-0004tv-DH for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:26:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W77ve-0005YW-25 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:26:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:26:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139067434721323 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:26:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2014 18:25:47 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35872 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W77vO-0005Xo-L6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:25:47 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:64467) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W77vI-0005XT-SR for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:25:42 -0500 Original-Received: from [62.47.61.211] ([62.47.61.211]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M9s2y-1W0ZPH3y9Y-00B0N6 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:25:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:0DO8EPQJCj8dh6aj3XyKeUqGflvXdrva0TKXKrG1UjCK210pLmB 3rBVq0BhjFUxacdl611LjgOeSe2gYS9nzv1zvziuxvyYvKpihQhnRRbhRucP8oOjK5t1Wue lUGfxPXwf17LI6oXlj6caKT/w8k1a15MVLhR9fZEbo2pcI0Cz0b2Y7PMy9YyOOhwvvuad/E luNgpnMN0MNbCO8uMNIDg== X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:84006 Archived-At: >> First re-read the thread of bug#8368. Then read the doc-string of >> `with-temp-buffer-window'. Then re-read the thread of bug#8368. >> Then re-read the doc-string ... > > I have. But why do you say that To help you understand what you are saying. > -- is bug #8368 fixed? I don't know and I don't care. I almost forgot about it until you decided to participate in the present thread. > If you have a concrete suggestion, please offer it. > And what is the "problem" that needs fixing with my not having > any code that uses `with-temp-buffer-window'? The one you apparently have with `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > If bug #8368 is now fixed, great: What code to replace with what > code, concretely? Your code that uses `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > Are the misnamed macros and hooks being renamed > as well? > > I don't see that in the doc string of `with-temp-buffer-window'. > If a macro and the hooks it uses are all about *Help* then they > should not be named `with-output-to-temp-buffer', > `temp-buffer-setup-hook' etc. They should have "help" in their > names instead of "temp". ===> bug #8368. > > Adding new hooks that have almost the same names but very different > meanings and uses is a bad idea. `temp-buffer-window-setup-hook' > and `temp-buffer-setup-hook' sound like they would be similar, with > the difference being "window". Alas no. > > I don't have a problem with your new names. The problem is with > the old names, and with not deprecating them, _especially_ after > adding false-friend new names. > > The old macros and hooks should be renamed to use "help" - with > aliases provided for the old names, with deprecation of the old > names, and preferably with no plan to _ever_ desupport the old > names. (Deprecation does not imply desupport. It allows for > later desupport, but in some cases desupport is not possible or > advisable or necessary.) Maybe Leo would have started to do that if you had not interfered. I suggest you apologize and consult with him on how to proceed on this matter. > FWIW, the NEWS is, I would think, one good place to put > deprecation notices. If `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is > deprecated, we should learn in the NEWS that this is the case > AND what it is replaced by. IOW, tell users how to update their > code. Likewise for the misnamed hooks etc. > > Instead, at least so far, NEWS has only this: > > *** New macro `with-temp-buffer-window', similar to > `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > > That "similar to" might do more harm than help. That's life. martin