From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andreas_R=F6hler?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 16:23:13 +0200 Message-ID: <52404ED1.7040400@online.de> References: <523ED74D.4030205@online.de> <87ioxs4zc9.fsf@informatimago.com> <87k3i8vj93.fsf@yandex.ru> <83bo3kk6hh.fsf@gnu.org> <87eh8gzee5.fsf@yandex.ru> <871u4go1bp.fsf@gmail.com> <523FD9B2.9030304@online.de> <834n9cj9s3.fsf@gnu.org> <523FEE11.3050703@online.de> <87txhb3a8n.fsf@informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1379946081 18280 80.91.229.3 (23 Sep 2013 14:21:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 14:21:21 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 23 16:21:24 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VO70t-0000rf-Ur for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 16:21:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40961 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO70t-0000tv-GM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 10:21:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42377) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO70l-0000sd-Bd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 10:21:21 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO70d-0003z2-8F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 10:21:15 -0400 Original-Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.8]:63179) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO70c-0003yg-TB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 10:21:07 -0400 Original-Received: from purzel.sitgens (brln-4dba5cf6.pool.mediaWays.net [77.186.92.246]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrbap0) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MQM5U-1VIZ5w3CxA-00Tzi2; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 16:21:05 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 In-Reply-To: <87txhb3a8n.fsf@informatimago.com> X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:H2q/npvn8RuPeYo0OEbB/NIEgdJW/Ju8aaQ0eIEOENL o6DMFRn2T1xn+QX/cPS+I7B2/jxYSnnj7FPyl6V0JTpiO913Qd 1KT9BHbhKTgM9YluSD4Wik9k3gViUrzXVkLyQi38+j3vV9HLxT Sq2PPBfzP1nzCLxZg7m5FK36tWK7070UYOCLOGhx/Mxjsh/QHO mbCEZvdwmFFdCrXL+OXsPZeZKZZZfa3e8ts30l3ZhBQohDO6tH +bqBm1AsO5tTb0qfd1dT3IVn4M5cxnLH5CGoO7s7HdYlNwWagA zzyMxgIL9Cg/+nX/3K0pC7/l+SyBvmJITPuyGUMuY1H3YKrpFX 3htfAkWbNFzosW0LeIPQ= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 212.227.17.8 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:163582 Archived-At: Am 23.09.2013 16:04, schrieb Pascal J. Bourguignon: > Andreas Röhler writes: > >> Am 23.09.2013 09:07, schrieb Eli Zaretskii: >>>> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 08:03:30 +0200 >>>> From: Andreas Röhler >>>> >>>> Am 23.09.2013 02:18, schrieb Lennart Borgman: >>>>> The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the >>>>> new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-) >>>> >>>> Putting users first attention at that kind of matter, it also spreads a quit unjust and wrong impression WRT Emacs and it's people. >>>> >>>> That tutorial probably was okay twenty years ago. >>>> No it reads as vim's ":q" is envied, proving emacs can make it difficult too. >>> >>> When did you read it last time? also 20 years ago? >>> >> >> >> At the very first screen C-v is presented. >> Nowadays keyboards commonly have an own key for it, no need to bother beginners with this. >> While later, certainly, it's preferable. >> >> Next screen tells about C-p, C-n >> That must have been changed very recently ;) > > Perhaps. On the other hand, I use C-v M-v C-p and C-n much much more > often than the arrows and pgup/down keys, just for the 10 cm out (+ 10 > cm back) I would have to move my hand to use them. > > I only use arrows when I don't have my hands on the keyboards in the > first place, and even, to scroll down SPC is in a lot of mode much more > convenient too. Perfectly right. But, we definitely aren't talking WRT experienced Emacs users, the tutorial is about beginners at the very first day on earth. > > What I mean is that perhaps concentrating on keys is the wrong thing to > do, vs. concentrating on bindings and the fact that you can configure > them as you want, and that the default bindings (foremost the oldest of > them) are quite _optimized_. > > So this thread seems taking the route. A tutorial should start to tell what Emacs is about. Basic edits are so common nowadays, any extra here might come later. Let's the menu display all basic commands and keys and refer the beginner to menu. But tell why we are using Emacs and not any other tool.