From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Some developement questions Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 15:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <50bde9bc-3a30-478d-aeb1-42810bbfe0cf@default> References: <87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87k1oeaofu.fsf@ada> <20180825103413.gbm5stsl67j6weow@Ergus> <87k1od7vzf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83wosd5h3x.fsf@gnu.org> <871sakzssu.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83bm9n6f7d.fsf@gnu.org> <87tvneql3i.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83o9dl2oob.fsf@gnu.org> <87y3coopyf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <5261e02f-fd51-7e8d-fb6b-ad013ce2e748@lanl.gov> <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535840936 23169 195.159.176.226 (1 Sep 2018 22:28:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 22:28:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , radon.neon@gmail.com, flexibeast@gmail.com, spacibba@aol.com, Emacs development discussions To: hw , Davis Herring Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 02 00:28:51 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwENv-0005ta-3u for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 00:28:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38650 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwEQ1-0008Jh-I7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 18:31:01 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51059) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwEPu-0008JQ-Gp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 18:30:55 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwEPt-0007lf-Qh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 18:30:54 -0400 Original-Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:56096) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwEPo-0007eC-CV; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 18:30:48 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w81MUc97009987; Sat, 1 Sep 2018 22:30:39 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=hPREYb50Ug8T9wC0PHOiKj/DzShATjk6Q2APW1AlsUg=; b=EHDf7Rs0mRrZVll4Lok3kbKUlMsoGFXDPP0VYGtVuemza/BPluuN40ICoJ5h0xyu+K9i AA9Y3VECz8csmEb3N6vlPL2tLZtl/G9a/bj3+kOMp5MG+peo5YAFASQzD+qC0sGJB9QC /+UXpwuG2y3CHw0d0+4lBbVjdl8R+QDi4Ip9VBIn4r/ZEQ/RPAvc45VZ0ykFPNxxbM/J 1kJPjVyNp+aT+7MH4OfgHGsTEGIX4Mb7mYbbyt3AYMBuq8Ha7siq+mfHX0mP3Cl/2sE5 XqwUjkleF7YG4UOLVE9RSsBVebkAv9x9h/ETl3p3IQgc1YtehUUc/aD2SLKvOsP+s560 mA== Original-Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2m7kdq2509-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 01 Sep 2018 22:30:38 +0000 Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w81MUbmS032353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 1 Sep 2018 22:30:38 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w81MUbQa025291; Sat, 1 Sep 2018 22:30:37 GMT In-Reply-To: <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4732.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9003 signatures=668708 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1809010248 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.85 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229173 Archived-At: > The issue in this case is not traditional key bindings vs. more recently > invented ones. The issue is that I very rarely use info and thus do not > remember its key bindings. Does the help page I got stuck in say > anywhere how to get back? The Info menu-bar menu has menu item `Back in history' (which, for consistency, should follow the convention and be `Back in History'). And next to that item you'll see its key: `l'. You'll also find item `Forward in history' and its key, `r' (think "left" and "right", if you like). And you'll find item `History' and its key, `L'. Try it, to see what it offers. In general, Emacs menus can be a good way to discover features (possible ac= tions). > Why shouldn't Emacs adjust to changes and adopt new key bindings so it > becomes easier to use? Who says it hasn't changed key bindings and doesn't become easier to use? There are (often extended) discussions on this list pretty much every year about possible key binding changes. Good arguments are typically presented on multiple sides of the discussions. Keep in mind that people can have different ideas of what "easier to use" means, and people use different things in Emacs. Emacs is not a simple editor with only a few possible actions. > >> I have menu and toolbar disabled ... > > > > Complaining about navigability and discoverability of an interface > > while having disabled its most discoverable features meant to guide > > new users is a strange combination. >=20 > I'm pointing out a usability issue and you call it complaining. If he had not used the word "complaining" would you perhaps get his point? Menus can help discovery. (Toolbar buttons not so much, IMO.)