From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jens Schmidt Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New Package for NonGNU-ELPA: clojure-ts-mode Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2023 22:16:58 +0200 Message-ID: <50bda606-d52f-cd91-4037-59078c587edb@vodafonemail.de> References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87wmy080kn.fsf@posteo.net> <83v8djcydl.fsf@gnu.org> <87350ndquw.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83350ncbns.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyzrjbd8.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83zg2vav46.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j99304.fsf@dfreeman.email> <97224c4f-fad4-ae01-46c1-5755d97d9a92@gutov.dev> <87fs3ztq38.fsf@localhost> <87cyz3qwba.fsf@posteo.net> <8734zztmiz.fsf@localhost> <87sf7zqs3l.fsf@yahoo.com> <87il8vs6e7.fsf@localhost> <87jztbqrc9.fsf@yahoo.com> <877cpbs5a0.fsf@localhost> <87fs3zqqgj.fsf@yahoo.com> <874jkfs4o0.fsf@localhost> <87y1hroz47.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6385"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.14.0 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Ahmed Khanzada To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 02 22:18:23 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qcX4Y-0001Si-Dj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Sep 2023 22:18:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcX3l-000163-25; Sat, 02 Sep 2023 16:17:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcX3j-00015b-7i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Sep 2023 16:17:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mr6.vodafonemail.de ([145.253.228.166]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qcX3f-0006CK-98; Sat, 02 Sep 2023 16:17:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vodafonemail.de; s=vfde-mb-mr2-21dec; t=1693685834; bh=DDEa735e5twSxEXDsG+uBbmGyQrpGHd4sgCLzZbuXsE=; h=Message-ID:Date:User-Agent:Subject:Content-Language:To:References: From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:From; b=TsNjTnWdE0busB7apQRySNJtaXEyJ4cOYOjercLdQZ6uP2w9fMFkGmZhCJBbrCCFq Zl8kFEzj2ZHOtOJfyb5Sso846b3TR+kxRL3xIpD6uP2uEhw5AIGJhCQ8FA6H5xu/o+ HIGGr24Gbo2DM/ePC0Xpu+YblhuoSfzABGE2N5nY= Original-Received: from smtp.vodafone.de (unknown [10.0.0.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mr6.vodafonemail.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4RdR5Q4Cd8z1xsb; Sat, 2 Sep 2023 20:17:14 +0000 (UTC) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.138] (unknown [86.33.91.186]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.vodafone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4RdR5C5cfvz9ryT; Sat, 2 Sep 2023 20:17:00 +0000 (UTC) Content-Language: de-DE-frami, en-US In-Reply-To: X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate: clean X-purgate-size: 3256 X-purgate-ID: 155817::1693685830-B67F9E22-31404477/0/0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=145.253.228.166; envelope-from=jschmidt4gnu@vodafonemail.de; helo=mr6.vodafonemail.de X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.473, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309911 Archived-At: On 2023-09-02 03:51, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > The problems you've reported with emacs-devel seem significant. > Thanks for describing them clearly. > > > These text entry boxes on Github et al. definitely > > feel easier and more inviting to use. > > Github is a non-starter for the GNU Project for moral reasons: it > requires users to run nonfree JavaScript. We can't direct users > there. Github was just one example of these forges, on some other thread a self-hosted Gitlab has been mentioned. SourceHut advertises its JavaScript-freeness, and while they currently "only" have a mail-based workflow, some web front-end seems to be in their pipeline. > But we shouldn't neglect the email problems you've repoeted. Most of the problems I described stem from the fact that I have been determined to use my readily set-up Thunderbird as email client also for Emacs development mail, and not one of the Emacs alternatives. But I feel this is really an uphill battle and I will probably migrate to Gnus at least for my Emacs development mail. > I think we could eliminate the inconveniences of email this way. If there are any ... I could try keeping track of my experiences when I change to Gnus. > > Exactly. TBH I still have to assemble courage to post here. All these > > top dogs with their super-dry yet elaborate communication style are > > surely, um, intimidating. > > That is not a good thing. Maybe we can continue on the path of the Kind > Communication Guidelines (https://gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html) > to make emacs-devel less intimidating. > > Would you like to start accumulating a list of examples that do, > or did in the past, feel intimidating to you? We could learn ommething > from that. There aren't any particular examples, really. Let's try a comparison instead, slightly exaggerating: - On help-gnu-emacs/gmane.emacs.help I feel like on a market place, chatting to others; - When opening a bug on bug-gnu-emacs, I feel like at the doctor's; - But on emacs-devel I feel like in a temple with the priests scrutinely examining me and weighing my words, while the crowd watches. > First step, we could set up a web page that explais the conventions > in a clear and kind way, so that when we ask newcomers to follow them, > we won't make per feel bad. Exactly. I'm not sure about the relationship between Emacs development and the Emacs Wiki, but there you have at least something already that could be extended: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsMailingLists. And I concur with Ahmed in that other reply to your mail: Emacs development could need some more "social network" aspects, IMO. Not only to follow a particular developer, but also to know her or him a bit better. That would take out that priest-in-a-temple feeling a bit, I guess. Drew Adams, though not an Emacs maintainer, has a nice page on the EmacsWiki, for example: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/DrewAdams.