From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal to improve the nomenclature of scrolling directions Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 21:55:04 +0400 Message-ID: <50994EF8.5000109@yandex.ru> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1352224528 13441 80.91.229.3 (6 Nov 2012 17:55:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 17:55:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Adrian.B.Robert@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: eliz@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 06 18:55:35 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TVnN9-0004I5-C6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 18:55:35 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46552 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVnN0-0005GY-Fw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 12:55:26 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51672) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVnMx-0005GC-8G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 12:55:24 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVnMs-0004mQ-4u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 12:55:23 -0500 Original-Received: from forward18.mail.yandex.net ([95.108.253.143]:36318) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TVnMh-0004br-Op; Tue, 06 Nov 2012 12:55:08 -0500 Original-Received: from smtp17.mail.yandex.net (smtp17.mail.yandex.net [95.108.252.17]) by forward18.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 7E41517817A4; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 21:55:03 +0400 (MSK) Original-Received: from smtp17.mail.yandex.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp17.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 4287C1900401; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 21:55:03 +0400 (MSK) Original-Received: from 98-87.nwlink.spb.ru (98-87.nwlink.spb.ru [178.252.98.87]) by smtp17.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTP id t2KaGKSs-t2KCvRtu; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 21:55:02 +0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1352224503; bh=hTpoifqFthDrwe3fRmo93S8VePGyqrODtqme2MVSpak=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=L4r7YSypcG4aQaQZmTMDtlWMZpsdgsHZgryRWnMRFq1a92MPTCQUuGg5VultlWmuM NlZwJI4mwZNREaroJp3QTN8Tp2py5X19IUYIBwyKZkC2Lg/vn08gs29l/f69Tn4tJX Rnn5ZW51DIZBW4dBT7kgiSfTRFZuBH37lBlN5ZY4= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 95.108.253.143 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:154703 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Adrian Robert >> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 17:24:08 +0000 (UTC) >> >> Stephen J. Turnbull xemacs.org> writes: >> >> > >> > Nix writes: >> > >> > > (Even on mobile devices with touchscreens, where you swipe the text >> > > to move the text up, that operation is *still* called 'scrolling >> > > down'.) >> > >> > Which drives me nuts, because it's the text that moves (and that's >> > true in editors, as well). For me it's "page down" but "scroll the >> > text up". "Scroll [nothing in particular but Do What I Mean dammit] >> > " is just uninterpretable to me. >> >> Sure, the text moves, but we don't care about it. > > Alas, people _do_ care about what they do vs what they say or see. > Try calling something white "black" and see if it sticks. Sure, people do care. The main difference is what's to be considered the point of reference. If we consider the text as more "important", then it feels "glued in place", and the window scolls down. If, on the other hand, the editor is the center of the universe, then yes, the window doesn't move anywhere, it's the text that scrolls up. >> "Scroll down" refers to what happens with the *viewer's* perspective >> into the content that we are focusing on. > > This reasoning would work if you'd need to swipe the window's frame > down, and text would then move up. But that's not what's happening: > the user must explicitly swipe the text UP. > > This is different from desktops, where you press a key labeled "Page > Down", and don't make any gestures in the upward direction. A good physical analogy might be climbing a tree. You're climbing down, but when each of yours hands is touching the tree, it's going up relative to you. When climbing up, vice versa.