From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rainer M Krug Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Issues with emacs Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:14:57 +0200 Message-ID: <4FE6E8A1.5060107@gmail.com> References: <87bokbb4zw.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1340532919 32040 80.91.229.3 (24 Jun 2012 10:15:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:15:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: rusi Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 24 12:15:18 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Sijqe-0000jm-MR for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:15:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34651 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Sijqe-0004eE-Ja for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 06:15:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56737) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SijqX-0004e8-Nu for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 06:15:12 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SijqV-0001pf-Je for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 06:15:09 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ey0-f169.google.com ([209.85.215.169]:51694) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SijqV-0001le-AE for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 06:15:07 -0400 Original-Received: by eaan1 with SMTP id n1so1029566eaa.0 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 03:15:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:newsgroups:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=L4MgNQkMEMmSXu2vZvS9XJsMic+mhuQ7Sl08usrfvXc=; b=EBMA+Q4Tfx51G6A2zjAVjcVN0FiCQdvHZpsbHTCec2H6315rop8FVX0Dk5/qGmWf7V ee7mwD3PEKeNCLBkI0Ad/LDT4aURCa1jI/TInPC41XT9Fmn477fH04IjfS40reWpbvJ1 XWpcVXXop2L+4pY2L9gLP+z2B2z27ZKDFSqHW9AaPFjafP7wFg1ZCd3yVIAmME47Qge0 qxfLZmIbLtLGTIIAjpeBg/HAxFwUTqDy4S/k83teceLLC+khikYc3t0mc9ZckA/YcBHh RtgJrqR2lm1S7KIUOlb9xtqfpPP79jQzifGrtNf4DgmVHQ+YE8ttLeWAKQdcmfyTRiTa Z4UQ== Original-Received: by 10.14.101.79 with SMTP id a55mr1518922eeg.32.1340532904029; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 03:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?IPv6:2a01:e35:8baa:b070:b922:c0f3:7922:587? ([2a01:e35:8baa:b070:b922:c0f3:7922:587]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a16sm128475105eeg.0.2012.06.24.03.15.01 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 24 Jun 2012 03:15:01 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120615 Thunderbird/13.0.1 Original-Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.215.169 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:85411 Archived-At: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 24/06/12 08:39, rusi wrote: > On Jun 24, 7:39 am, ken wrote: > >> 5. Make the elisp documentation and tutorials so easy and fun to learn that tons of people >> actually want to write code. > > When I first started reading the emacs/elisp docs around 93 I found them a model of clarity. > Has that changed much? I dont think so > > Whats changed? The fact that we are in 2012. In those days it was completely natural to expect > that somebody who used a computer read a manual Today thats a strange requirement to say the > least. > > Would a modern kid using a new phone/car expect to read a manual? The fact is they dont > (whereas oldies like me struggle to find them :-) ) > > And so you give them emacs along with a manual and they look at you funny. > > By chance they look inside and they find: - there's a key called Meta? Whazzat? - C-p and C-n > do up and down? Really?! (and whatever is C- ?) - And when you tell them arrow keys work just > fine they are ready with a lock and key to put you away somewhere And I this is a very important point: one advantage I think many of us see in emacs (you can (probably even have to) do everything with keyboarsd shortcut / sequences) is the point where new users omost often struggle - and I speak of experience. I started using emacs because of ESS-mode for writing R programs - but I regularly tried eclipse because of its 1) more "convential" (read: GUI) look 2) the possibility to do everything with eh mouse. but I always went back to emacs because simply ESS was much better. Then I started, for a bigger project in R, to use org-mode for literate programming, and I thought after some time again about eclipse, but: there is nothing like org mode. So in a nutshell: I had to dig my way through the a) "conservative look" (Which I really like by now!) and, more difficult, b) the un-usual (in the eyes of most non-emacs users) keyboard shortcuts. So two (probably three) points spring to mind which *could* make emacs more attractive for new users to reach that "point of no return" where they realize: there is nothing like amacs! 1) improve the menu to live up to "moderm" menu standards, so that efffectually everything could be done by using the mouse (*but most definitely keep the keyboard shortcuts!!!!!!!). I know that this is not possible for all additional packages, but at least the emacs core should be usable completely via mouse. 2) improve the GUI look, to conform more with a "modern" look 3) change the menu, so that there the new users learns to do the stuff by using the mose (and introduce the keyboard e.g. in brackets). - From my experience: when (or in many cases "if") the new user manages to accept and use way of using emacs (now via initially *very strange* keyboard shortcuts) to reach the brilliant features and tha land off possibilities hidden behind, they will stay. If the initial crossing of the border can be done easier, more users will discover the wonders of emacs. Cheers, Rainer > > tl;dr version: Saying that emacs manuals are not fun and easy to learn is wrong. Its just that > reading them feels like 1980 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/m6KEACgkQoYgNqgF2egq1zgCeJ0lcrcQP/K4ThL++kqAPWCMn xLgAn2Nf0P3OCW3HbDj0V7JvVwBhOLS8 =MRnE -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----