From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Key bindings proposal Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 07:42:51 -0700 Message-ID: <4E5480A100044AD58D82F16054CA3CF9@us.oracle.com> References: <19534.1494.627000.357123@gargle.gargle.HOWL><176EDAD3B9E54E39870FA3F84A5DDF3C@us.oracle.com><19542.56658.583000.394397@gargle.gargle.HOWL><19544.1015.468000.280770@gargle.gargle.HOWL><19546.30901.687000.971249@gargle.gargle.HOWL><19546.47167.15000.439215@gargle.gargle.HOWL><87fwys7qao.fsf@telefonica.net><87hbj8qvd9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87iq3k68ye.fsf@stupidchicken.com><874of466rj.fsf@stupidchicken.com><87pqxsbrie.fsf@stupidchicken.com><87k4 nv7t72.fsf@stupidchicken.com><19556.28233.750000.798692@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19557.2279.703000.707743@gargle.gargle.HOWL> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1281710686 21383 80.91.229.12 (13 Aug 2010 14:44:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:44:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Chong Yidong' , 'Lennart Borgman' , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Uday S Reddy'" , "'Juanma Barranquero'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 13 16:44:44 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OjvUy-00079O-3W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:44:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40532 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OjvUx-0003yQ-Fq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:44:43 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=44904 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OjvUr-0003yL-2B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:44:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OjvUp-0004mq-PR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:44:36 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:33756) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OjvUp-0004mg-KM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:44:35 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o7DEiHN9030471 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:44:18 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o7C4i6hm004624; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:44:15 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt010.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 493921231281710575; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 07:42:55 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.218.59) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 07:42:54 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <19557.2279.703000.707743@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Thread-Index: Acs6xZYDlCLX0pLBRxKh12MQ9eDNeAAKFEPA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128605 Archived-At: > the wikipedia page on the windows key says that [treating > the windows key as meta] is *freqently* done. On what basis does Wikipedia say that? Do you believe it is true? Why? > For the seasoned Emacs users, something like 90% of our work is done > inside Emacs and only around 10% in Windows. My guess (just a guess) is that there are many, many of us Emacs users on Windows who are *UN*seasoned according to that statement. One at least: me. I use Windows applications (outside of Emacs) for most of what I do all day. Call me an Emacs newbie. Like many Windows users (a guess, based on what I see), I use neither ALT for Windows-specific features (e.g. ALT-TAB) nor the Window key for Windows-specific features. And that is the case regardless of whether I'm using Emacs. (I've used the Window key to bring up Windows Explorer - but generally only on other people's desktops when they don't have a shortcut to it.) I would even guess that most Windows users never use the ALT key in a Windows-specific way (except for CONTROL-ALT-DELETE) and never use the Window key at all. For one thing, most are not programmers (another guess), and most interact with Windows using the mouse most of the time, not the keyboard. And my guess is that _very_ few (proportionally) users of Windows use menu accelerators. That's a lot of guesses ("many", "most") on my part, admittedly. What does Wikipedia say? ;-) Of course it is not all-important what many or most Windows users do. Even if only 0.00001% of them use menu accelerators or whatever, it might still be a good idea for Emacs to support such a feature - as an _option_. Being able to use menu accelerators or use the Window key as Meta (or as Control or Super or Hyper or...) as an _optional_ behavior is one thing. AFAIK, no one has objected to that, so if that is all you are arguing about then the story should be over and done. Send a patch for consideration to provide such optional behavior. But making Emacs give up ALT as Meta by default on some particular platform would be quite another thing. I do not see any good reason for that. Other things being equal, it is good for Emacs to have the same default keys across platforms. And ALT as Meta in Emacs is as old as the hills and as common as their wildflowers. What does Wikipedia say about that? Does it tell you that using ALT as Meta "is *frequently* done" in Emacs? > So, it makes sense for us to put as many resources as possible at Emacs's > disposal rather than Windows. Which means what? That's just as much an argument for keeping the defaults the way they are, ALT for Meta and letting users bind the Window key in Emacs if they like. > I am afraid the logic is on Lennart's side. Do not be afraid. ;-) But do show the logic please, if there is any. > For better or worse, Microsoft has ended up providing us with a good > pair of modifier keys. Now, let us put them to good use! ALT as Meta key is definitely put to good use by Emacs. On all platforms. Out of the box. Always has been. You can easily move among platforms and keyboards and change nothing about how you use the ALT key. Well, on Windows you might need to first set a variable or two to prevent Windows from grabbing ALT for its own use in some cases. But other than that using ALT in Emacs is pretty transparent across platforms. If you want to argue that Emacs should by default grab ALT for Meta in all cases (including for example `(w32-register-hot-key [M-tab])', then go for it: make the argument. Personally, I probably would not object to such a change. The Window key, on the other hand, is not available for non-PC keyboards. There is no special reason to give it any default behavior in Emacs. Leave it open, for users to bind as they wish.