From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eric Abrahamsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: fontsets/charsets documentation suggestion Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 15:14:54 -0700 Message-ID: <4C8D343E-7683-4CC9-8251-D0DB7BFA7A91@gmail.com> References: <2349B30D-81A8-4018-A484-80EA84FB6498@gmail.com> <83prci3nhp.fsf@gnu.org> <83zlbk27n9.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1246762951 8456 80.91.229.12 (5 Jul 2009 03:02:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 03:02:31 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 05 05:02:24 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1MNHzi-0006pg-SV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 05 Jul 2009 05:02:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42674 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MNHzh-0001QF-TD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 04 Jul 2009 23:02:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MNDaf-0005Kb-3i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:20:13 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MNDaa-0005Jr-Hr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:20:12 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=33142 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MNDaa-0005Jo-CN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:20:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-px0-f200.google.com ([209.85.216.200]:60746) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MNDaY-00085e-EV; Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:20:06 -0400 Original-Received: by pxi38 with SMTP id 38so1930150pxi.14 for ; Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:20:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:cc:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:x-mailer; bh=F46CSCHJPVM/nb2Fo8Ahhke/zyh4AahEVMAA1MHB1wE=; b=MqxJWh8saMokr4w1t5Vxmqlea8hSWommmmyknpda91EGUmX2QtpH9RWV9jYV15DWn0 84uJVeMDI5B8qnfaQcBNnOWifnmlaiQaBJQpR44an06PpUdsArk3rNSZ4W+hca0dpO0g rQOcsslrxKAH+FxOUJ72Unkr7FX6mFDN2G7oM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :x-mailer; b=FlQMxWqa4tNyjixlcSmLGiTa4okqUkpuoxfFNKtnfhYGIQo0TmwkFqd9fNN5Y1HdyP sISqlnVoUKsBnCoZW90L/ZjxRnfZXPCK0Ue5Yo6LCkom6A+2sFgLr6vTes2KMC07A7qj ow/ICAnoxaerz3gxRxzMaANMolu4tmzeQa3l0= Original-Received: by 10.114.199.1 with SMTP id w1mr4571569waf.151.1246745703860; Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?192.168.0.8? ([63.226.249.211]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n30sm8641210wag.6.2009.07.04.15.15.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:15:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83zlbk27n9.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 23:02:17 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:112029 Archived-At: On Jul 4, 2009, at 1:07 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: Eric Abrahamsen >> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 18:40:56 -0700 >> >>> This is in the manual, see the node "Character Sets" and maybe the >>> other nodes from its parent "Non-ASCII Characters", if you need more >>> background. >>> >>> If something is missing or unclear, please post more specific =20 >>> gripes. >> >> Hmm, I wonder if this is part of the problem. Section 26 of my Emacs >> Info file is 'International Character Set Support', and everything >> relevant seems to be under this heading. I don't see a 'Character >> Sets' or a 'Non-ASCII Characters' node. There's no index entry for >> 'registry', neither does a grep of the info files for 'registry' >> produce any definition of the word as related to fonts. Am I looking >> in the wrong place? (I'm using a CVS build on Mac OSX, the ns >> Emacs.app version.) > > I meant the Emacs Lisp manual, not the User manual. Sorry, I should > have made that clear, but for some reason (perhaps because you > mentioned create-fontset-from-fontset-spec) I thought you were already > looking there, and that you need this information for writing Lisp > code. Good lord yes, that makes much more sense. I'm approaching this purely =20= as a user trying to define a multi-lingual environment, not an Elisp =20 coder, and some of the Elisp manual stuff is necessary to make that =20 work. > >> The existing examples would be clear if I'd gone into it actually >> understanding the difference between a charset, a script and a >> registry, and knowing which variables contained the possible values >> for each of these three concepts. My particular use-case was defining >> specific fonts for English/Latin, Chinese and Thai, and I did not >> understand where 'han' came from, and its relationship to 'chinese- >> gb2312' (I have since been directed to charset-script-alist). If I'm >> actually missing a chunk of the documentation this would be better. >> >> There aren't any examples of using create-fontset-from-fontset-spec, >> and it would be nice to see one or two. The documentation for the >> function is technically correct, I'm sure, but is the kind of >> documentation that's only useful if you already understand how it >> works. Neither 26.15 Defining Fontsets nor the documentation say how >> you actually employ a fontset once you've made it. This has got to be >> one of the most complex areas of Emacs customization, and it would be >> nice to err on the side of too much hand-holding. > > I agree that the description of fontsets in the User manual is barely > minimal, especially if the user (a) needs to create complex fontsets > dealing with several different character sets, and (b) does not > already know quite a lot about character sets. The problem is that > most people who work on the manual know very little about subtleties > and intricacies of fontsets, and it clearly shows in the quality of > that section. > > I wonder if the stuff in the ELisp manual helps in any way. If it > does, we could copy some of it, with suitable editing, into the User > manual. I think that's exactly what should be done. Emacs 23 is far better at =20= providing multilingual support, which means more and more users are =20 going to want to do it, and they're going to need more help. So maybe a step-by-step tutorial with the following: 1. A really quick version of 33.1 Text Representations 2. How to find what fonts are on your machine and available to Emacs =20 (with system-dependent variations). 3. The difference between charset, registry and script, and the =20 relevant functions and variables. 4. How to read a font string. 5. What a fontset is, and what it looks like in its various guises. 6. How to find currently defined fontsets (ie list-fontsets), and how =20= they relate to each other (I've got fontset-default, fontset-standard, =20= and fontset-startup and I have no idea which of those I should be =20 working with). 7. How to use set-fontset-font and create-fontset-from-fontset-spec to =20= create and modify fontsets. Describe the argument variations within =20 the manual, not just in the function docs. 8. How to examine existing characters in buffers (ie C-u C-x =3D), and =20= to use that information to inform your usage of the above two functions. I'd be happy to assist in whatever way possible =96 I could suggest more = =20 additions to the manual or read through new docs (I'm an editor, among =20= other things). I know squat about fontsets, obviously, but maybe that =20= could be useful. Thanks for your responses on this! Eric