Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Christophe Poncy]

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:30:31, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
 > [...]
 > I expect that beginners are more likely to use the scroll bar, while
 > experienced users would not. But the experienced users can turn off
 > the scroll bar, or move it, so we need not cater to them. The
 > beginners are the most important users to think about when making this
 > decision.
 >

Hello Richard,

The real question here is closely related to efficiency. Some of my 
friends ask me why I like emacs so much. There are a lot of reasons, but 
I think the main one is that it's much effective to use the keyboard. 
Learning to work in the Emacs way was an investment, but the effort has 
made me more proficient in my profession. IMHO, your idea of a "keyboard 
immersion mode" would be much helpful for beginners [1]. I use emacs for 
3 years now and i look forward the Emacsification of the entire GNU 
system, but it's another question :)

Best regards

Footnotes:
[1] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2009-11/msg01223.html


-- 
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Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[James Cloos]

C> Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

Ewww.  Why, if may I ask?

Way over on the right makes the scrollbar essentially useless (except,
of course, for putative buffers which are (will be) primarily r2l
and those times when the frame is split horizontally).

It really needs to be near the action, and on landscape displays the
frames are typically wider than (most of) the text.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Chong Yidong]

James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:

> C> Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.
>
> Ewww.  Why, if may I ask?
>
> Way over on the right makes the scrollbar essentially useless (except,
> of course, for putative buffers which are (will be) primarily r2l
> and those times when the frame is split horizontally).
>
> It really needs to be near the action, and on landscape displays the
> frames are typically wider than (most of) the text.

I'm familiar with the advantages, but this battle was fought long ago.
Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
scroll bar on the right.  Try naming one other application on a modern
GNU/Linux desktop that does the opposite by default---they don't exist.

Beyond a certain point, conflicting with users' expectations does more
harm than good.  But, you can do

  (set-scroll-bar-mode 'left)

or Options -> Show/Hide -> Scroll Bar -> On the Left.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "CY" == Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

CY> Try naming one other application on a modern
CY> GNU/Linux desktop that does the opposite by default---they don't exist.

Terminal emulators, which should be the basis for emacs' x11 frames.

I've also seen it on other editors.

CY> Beyond a certain point, conflicting with users' expectations does
CY> more harm than good.

On the right is in conflict with expectations, not on the left.

CY>  But, you can do
CY>   (set-scroll-bar-mode 'left)

And do it, and do it, and do it again on every install.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Chong Yidong]

James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:

> Terminal emulators, which should be the basis for emacs' x11 frames.

I don't agree with the second half of this statement, but gnome-terminal
and konsole both put the scroll-bar on the right.

> On the right is in conflict with expectations, not on the left.
>
> CY>  But, you can do
> CY>   (set-scroll-bar-mode 'left)
>
> And do it, and do it, and do it again on every install.

Er, this is what the init file is for.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Chong Yidong]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

>   > I'm familiar with the advantages, but this battle was fought long ago.
>   > Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
>   > scroll bar on the right.
>
> I don't think that can be used as an argument.  If it could, then
> delete-selection-mode would be the default too, that's what everything
> on the desktop does...

Compatibility with other apps is a valid argument, just not an absolute
rule.

What we could do, though, is to put non-toolkit scrollbars on the left
and toolkit scrollbars on the right.  If that's an acceptable
compromise, I'll implement it.

>   > Try naming one other application on a modern
>   > GNU/Linux desktop that does the opposite by default---they don't exist.
>
> xterm AKA the only terminal that actually works.

(The key word is "modern"; and personally, I use xterm with the
scrollbar disabled.)

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Chong Yidong]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

> What we could do, though, is to put non-toolkit scrollbars on the left
> and toolkit scrollbars on the right.  If that's an acceptable
> compromise, I'll implement it.

I mean GTK scrollbars.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

> Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
>
>>   > I'm familiar with the advantages, but this battle was fought long ago.
>>   > Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
>>   > scroll bar on the right.
>>
>> I don't think that can be used as an argument.  If it could, then
>> delete-selection-mode would be the default too, that's what everything
>> on the desktop does...
>
> Compatibility with other apps is a valid argument, just not an absolute
> rule.

With scrollbars, we are not talking about "compatibility" but
"similarity".  "compatibility" would be an issue when scripting
applications tried applying clicks to the scrollbar.

There is no compatibility issue involved here.

>>   > Try naming one other application on a modern
>>   > GNU/Linux desktop that does the opposite by default---they don't exist.
>>
>> xterm AKA the only terminal that actually works.
>
> (The key word is "modern"; and personally, I use xterm with the
> scrollbar disabled.)

So you are for disabling scrollbars altogether in Emacs?  Or what point
are you trying to make?

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "CY" == Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

CY> What we could do, though, is to put non-toolkit scrollbars on the
CY> left and toolkit scrollbars on the right.  If that's an acceptable
CY> compromise, I'll implement it.

I was about to suggest something of that sort, specifically gtk toolkit
scrollbars on the right, athena on the left and non-toolkit on the left.
I do not know what the motif default should be.  Or even whether anyone 
still uses it.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Miles Bader]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:
> Beyond a certain point, conflicting with users' expectations does more
> harm than good.

How exactly does having the scrollbar on a different side actually
_hurt_, though, especially when there are actually benefits as well?

[Obviously there are pedants who freak out when confronted by the
tiniest inconsistencies, but they're impossible to satisfy anyway.]

-Miles

-- 
Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly it flips over,
pinning you underneath.  At night the ice weasels come.  --Nietzsche

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

> James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:
>
>> C> Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.
>>
>> Ewww.  Why, if may I ask?
>>
>> Way over on the right makes the scrollbar essentially useless (except,
>> of course, for putative buffers which are (will be) primarily r2l
>> and those times when the frame is split horizontally).
>>
>> It really needs to be near the action, and on landscape displays the
>> frames are typically wider than (most of) the text.
>
> I'm familiar with the advantages, but this battle was fought long ago.

Emacs is not occupied territory.  Where it makes no sense, following the
herd is not necessary.

> Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
> scroll bar on the right.

Emacs is not a graphical display application, but an input text oriented
system.  JFTR, xterm has its scrollbar on the _left_.

> Try naming one other application on a modern GNU/Linux desktop that
> does the opposite by default---they don't exist.

xterm

> Beyond a certain point, conflicting with users' expectations does more
> harm than good.

Emacs has never had any qualms about conflicting with expectations where
this makes better sense.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Riley]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:
>
>> James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:
>>
>>> C> Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.
>>>
>>> Ewww.  Why, if may I ask?
>>>
>>> Way over on the right makes the scrollbar essentially useless (except,
>>> of course, for putative buffers which are (will be) primarily r2l
>>> and those times when the frame is split horizontally).
>>>
>>> It really needs to be near the action, and on landscape displays the
>>> frames are typically wider than (most of) the text.
>>
>> I'm familiar with the advantages, but this battle was fought long ago.
>
> Emacs is not occupied territory.  Where it makes no sense, following the
> herd is not necessary.
>
>> Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
>> scroll bar on the right.
>
> Emacs is not a graphical display application, but an input text oriented
> system.  JFTR, xterm has its scrollbar on the _left_.
>

How silly.

I, and most users I suspect, would want the scrollbar on the GUI version
in the same place as the HUGE majority for GUI "X" applications. On the
right.

xterm is not a "GUI application" in any but the most pedantic minds.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:
>>
>>> James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> C> Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.
>>>>
>>>> Ewww.  Why, if may I ask?
>>>>
>>>> Way over on the right makes the scrollbar essentially useless (except,
>>>> of course, for putative buffers which are (will be) primarily r2l
>>>> and those times when the frame is split horizontally).
>>>>
>>>> It really needs to be near the action, and on landscape displays the
>>>> frames are typically wider than (most of) the text.
>>>
>>> I'm familiar with the advantages, but this battle was fought long ago.
>>
>> Emacs is not occupied territory.  Where it makes no sense, following the
>> herd is not necessary.
>>
>>> Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
>>> scroll bar on the right.
>>
>> Emacs is not a graphical display application, but an input text oriented
>> system.  JFTR, xterm has its scrollbar on the _left_.
>
> How silly.
>
> I, and most users I suspect, would want the scrollbar on the GUI
> version in the same place as the HUGE majority for GUI "X"
> applications. On the right.
>
> xterm is not a "GUI application" in any but the most pedantic minds.

Neither is Emacs.  Both are focused about plain text input.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Riley]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> C> Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ewww.  Why, if may I ask?
>>>>>
>>>>> Way over on the right makes the scrollbar essentially useless (except,
>>>>> of course, for putative buffers which are (will be) primarily r2l
>>>>> and those times when the frame is split horizontally).
>>>>>
>>>>> It really needs to be near the action, and on landscape displays the
>>>>> frames are typically wider than (most of) the text.
>>>>
>>>> I'm familiar with the advantages, but this battle was fought long ago.
>>>
>>> Emacs is not occupied territory.  Where it makes no sense, following the
>>> herd is not necessary.
>>>
>>>> Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
>>>> scroll bar on the right.
>>>
>>> Emacs is not a graphical display application, but an input text oriented
>>> system.  JFTR, xterm has its scrollbar on the _left_.
>>
>> How silly.
>>
>> I, and most users I suspect, would want the scrollbar on the GUI
>> version in the same place as the HUGE majority for GUI "X"
>> applications. On the right.
>>
>> xterm is not a "GUI application" in any but the most pedantic minds.
>
> Neither is Emacs.  Both are focused about plain text input.

Indeed. But its X interface is still on a desktop next to other X
apps. The huge majority of whose scroll bars are on the right. It seems
almost a strange argument to be having.

And emacs is a scrollable UI - its an editor after all. Yes, you can
scroll xterm and urvt etc I know, but its not the same thing at all.

The X interface to Emacs should comply with the huge majority of
neighbouring apps. And thats the scroll bar on the right.

All IMO of course ;) But clearly also in the minds of other X authors.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> xterm is not a "GUI application" in any but the most pedantic minds.
>>
>> Neither is Emacs.  Both are focused about plain text input.
>
> Indeed. But its X interface is still on a desktop next to other X
> apps. The huge majority of whose scroll bars are on the right.

To be honest: there are not many X apps next to Emacs on my desktop
since it is my main interface to the computer.

> It seems almost a strange argument to be having.
>
> And emacs is a scrollable UI - its an editor after all. Yes, you can
> scroll xterm and urvt etc I know, but its not the same thing at all.

Hm?  Why not?

> The X interface to Emacs should comply with the huge majority of
> neighbouring apps. And thats the scroll bar on the right.

The X interface to Emacs should first of all be focused on usability.
Putting the scrollbars on the left has not been an arbitrary choice.

When other applications make inferior user interface choices, we need
not follow them.  Emacs will never be the same as other applications,
and that is not a goal in itself.  Emacs should be as good as it can be
for doing work with it.  If that means being different, that is fine.

> All IMO of course ;) But clearly also in the minds of other X authors.

The important people are not the authors but the serious users.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Stallman]

    I, and most users I suspect, would want the scrollbar on the GUI version
    in the same place as the HUGE majority for GUI "X" applications. On the
    right.

Why do you prefer it on the right?
In what way is that advantageous or convenient for you?

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Riley]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     I, and most users I suspect, would want the scrollbar on the GUI version
>     in the same place as the HUGE majority for GUI "X" applications. On the
>     right.
>
> Why do you prefer it on the right?
> In what way is that advantageous or convenient for you?
>

Because its in the same position as all other apps on my
desktop. Arbitrary positioning of any UI element is silly and the
reasons are well documented. In addition it isn't in my face since we
tend to read and write left to write so spend more time in the left side
of a window.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Riley]

Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>     I, and most users I suspect, would want the scrollbar on the GUI version
>>     in the same place as the HUGE majority for GUI "X" applications. On the
>>     right.
>>
>> Why do you prefer it on the right?
>> In what way is that advantageous or convenient for you?
>>
>
> Because its in the same position as all other apps on my
> desktop. Arbitrary positioning of any UI element is silly and the
> reasons are well documented. In addition it isn't in my face since we
> tend to read and write left to write so spend more time in the left side
> of a window.
>

"Left to write". Wow. Brain fart there!

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Sean Sieger]

    "Left to write". Wow. Brain fart there!

Nah.  Much more meaningful than mere flatulation:  as one
writes---types, one is going right ... the energy is focused on the
right.  Um, like welding (if you'll pardon the unlikely analogic
outburst), where the fusion is happening, heating the materials ahead.
Only periodically touching the left margin, it may be an origin, but it
shouldn't be confused with the focal point---not in reading or writing.

Um, close reading being the exceptional, not the usual, again the motion
is left to right, the left margin is hardly the focal point.  The usual,
scansion, I would suggest a lot more reading is done in scansion than in
close reading, is a mode that takes place in the midst of lines.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>     I, and most users I suspect, would want the scrollbar on the GUI version
>>     in the same place as the HUGE majority for GUI "X" applications. On the
>>     right.
>>
>> Why do you prefer it on the right?
>> In what way is that advantageous or convenient for you?
>>
>
> Because its in the same position as all other apps on my
> desktop. Arbitrary positioning of any UI element is silly and the
> reasons are well documented.

The positioning is not arbitrary.  You might with more reason argue that
arbitrary bindings of keys are silly, and that Emacs should have the
same bindings as Wordpad.  Because there is some arbitrariness involved
with the choice of keybindings.

But the scrollbar is on the left for a reason: _if_ you use the mouse
for editing, you'll use it more often than not on the left (until Eli's
work gets merged).  And the larger the windows are made horizontally,
the more of a nuisance it is to move the mouse.  In addition, if you use
Athena-style "proportional" scrollbars where you click next to the line
you want to scroll to the top, you can't usefully aim when the scrollbar
is on the right when the text does not run on for a full line (like when
editing shellscripts).

We have proportional scrolling when compiling without toolkit, and with
Xaw.  And Xaw has the default scrollbar on the left for other
applications.  It is really a pity that toolbars are either functional
and well-designed or pretty, but never both.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David De La Harpe Golden]

David Kastrup wrote:


> But the scrollbar is on the left for a reason: _if_ you use the mouse
> for editing, you'll use it more often than not on the left (until Eli's
> work gets merged)


Of course if you use a mouse in the modern era, chances are you'll
have a scroll wheel on the mouse, and be more perturbed by emacs'
treatment of the region and point when you scroll than the scrollbar's 
position. But that's a whole other can of worms.

I have the scrollbar on my screen (on the right, visible but nicely out 
of the way) primarily as a visual indicator of position in file, not to 
manipulate it much as such. I also tend to use emacs on modern landscape 
displays with two windows open side-by-side, so it's not all that far 
away on the right.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Stallman]

    Because its in the same position as all other apps on my
    desktop. Arbitrary positioning of any UI element is silly and the
    reasons are well documented. In addition it isn't in my face since we
    tend to read and write left to write so spend more time in the left side
    of a window.

It seems clear that you want to ignore the scroll bar.

Are you an experienced Emacs user?

Do you ever use the scroll bar in Emacs?
Would you be unhappy if you turned it off?

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Stallman]

    I'm familiar with the advantages, but this battle was fought long ago.
    Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
    scroll bar on the right.  Try naming one other application on a modern
    GNU/Linux desktop that does the opposite by default---they don't exist.

How are they relevant to this decision?

There are some interface details for which incompatibility is a real
pain in the neck.  But this is not one of them; it isn't harder to use
a scroll bar on the left just because in other apps it's on the right.
It may be a bit of a surprise to see it on the left, but that doesn't
impede use.

    Beyond a certain point, conflicting with users' expectations does more
    harm than good.  But, you can do

      (set-scroll-bar-mode 'left)

    or Options -> Show/Hide -> Scroll Bar -> On the Left.

Why choose anything other than the most convenient setting
as the default?

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:02:51 -0500
> Cc: cloos@jhcloos.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
>     Beyond a certain point, conflicting with users' expectations does more
>     harm than good.  But, you can do
> 
>       (set-scroll-bar-mode 'left)
> 
>     or Options -> Show/Hide -> Scroll Bar -> On the Left.
> 
> Why choose anything other than the most convenient setting
> as the default?

The problem is with how ``convenient'' is decided.  I suspect most
users nowadays will say that having the scroll bar on the right is the
most ``convenient''.  (I don't share that view, but I use the scroll
bar so little that my opinion hardly matters either way.)

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Miles Bader]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> The problem is with how ``convenient'' is decided.  I suspect most
> users nowadays will say that having the scroll bar on the right is the
> most ``convenient''. 

They may, but I suspect they can't actually say why...

The Emacs' position, whether one agrees with it or not, is actually
based on some reasoning.

[Thank god at least some of the hoary old artifacts of the original
macintosh GUI have been revised in recent years, e.g. fixed-size scroll
thumbs!]

-Miles

-- 
P.S.  All information contained in the above letter is false,
      for reasons of military security.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Chong Yidong]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> The problem is with how ``convenient'' is decided.  I suspect most
>> users nowadays will say that having the scroll bar on the right is the
>> most ``convenient''. 
>
> They may, but I suspect they can't actually say why...

http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~dixa/papers/scrollbar/

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Chong Yidong]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

> Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>> The problem is with how ``convenient'' is decided.  I suspect most
>>> users nowadays will say that having the scroll bar on the right is the
>>> most ``convenient''. 
>>
>> They may, but I suspect they can't actually say why...
>
> http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~dixa/papers/scrollbar/

Also

http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~dixa/papers/scrollbar/scrollbar2.html

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Miles Bader]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:
>>> They may, but I suspect they can't actually say why...
>>
>> http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~dixa/papers/scrollbar/
> http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~dixa/papers/scrollbar/scrollbar2.html

That's pretty flimsy...

-Miles

-- 
Barometer, n. An ingenious instrument which indicates what kind of weather we
are having.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Riley]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:
>>>> They may, but I suspect they can't actually say why...
>>>
>>> http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~dixa/papers/scrollbar/
>> http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~dixa/papers/scrollbar/scrollbar2.html
>
> That's pretty flimsy...
>
> -Miles

Not really in that it makes perfect sense. Most keyboard jockeys use a
scroll bar to indicate relative positioning with most apps, and it being
on the right IS out of the way and it being on the right is more
consistent with the HUGE majority of other desktop applications.

If you turn it around, I can think of no compelling reason to have it on
the left. If I were to use a scroll bar it would be with the mouse and
guess where my idle mouse pointer usually is ..... lurking around out of
harms way on the ... right of the screen ie closed to where most people
put their scroll bar.

Emacs doesn't always have to be counter intuitive to non hardcore
terminal users and Emacs nOObs ...

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Miles Bader]

Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
>> That's pretty flimsy...
>
> Not really in that it makes perfect sense. Most keyboard jockeys use a
> scroll bar to indicate relative positioning with most apps, and it being
> on the right IS out of the way and it being on the right is more
> consistent with the HUGE majority of other desktop applications.

... those are pretty flimsy too.

-Miles

-- 
Absurdity, n. A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own
opinion.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Riley]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
>>> That's pretty flimsy...
>>
>> Not really in that it makes perfect sense. Most keyboard jockeys use a
>> scroll bar to indicate relative positioning with most apps, and it being
>> on the right IS out of the way and it being on the right is more
>> consistent with the HUGE majority of other desktop applications.
>
> ... those are pretty flimsy too.
>
> -Miles

You keep calling things that are pretty obvious and core to UI design
issues "flimsy" while offering little in objection. I guess your mind is
made up.

Frankly I am surprised you think its "flimsy" to make it consistent with
the vast majority of other desktop applications. I call it very
important.

regards,

r.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Miles Bader]

Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
> You keep calling things that are pretty obvious and core to UI design
> issues "flimsy" while offering little in objection. I guess your mind is
> made up.

And you keep throwing up random unsubstantiated hand-waving as if it's
somehow authoritative.

> Frankly I am surprised you think its "flimsy" to make it consistent
> with the vast majority of other desktop applications. I call it very
> important.

Consistency is sometimes important, but it's not some kind of magic
powder that always grants merit.  The question (as Richard pointed out)
is whether "consistency" is actually _important_ in _this_ case.  It may
indeed be, but so far nobody has provided any real support for that
position other than vague hand-waving, and I think there's been equally
good support for the opposition position (not saying a whole lot, I
admit).

Granted, vague hand-waving is rife in the HCI field, but it's no more
convincing for that.

-Miles

-- 
Youth, n. The Period of Possibility, when Archimedes finds a fulcrum,
Cassandra has a following and seven cities compete for the honor of endowing a
living Homer.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Riley]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
>> You keep calling things that are pretty obvious and core to UI design
>> issues "flimsy" while offering little in objection. I guess your mind is
>> made up.
>
> And you keep throwing up random unsubstantiated hand-waving as if it's
> somehow authoritative.

What have I said that is any way random? You made that up to camouflage
your wishy washy defence for not supporting the rhs. There are plenty of
authoritative HCI studies which support UI controls being consistent
across desktop applications. I assumed you would have known that so I
didn't go into more detail.

>
>> Frankly I am surprised you think its "flimsy" to make it consistent
>> with the vast majority of other desktop applications. I call it very
>> important.
>
> Consistency is sometimes important, but it's not some kind of magic
> powder that always grants merit.  The question (as Richard pointed
> out)

Yes it is. Consistency is always of some merit. Its why it exists in
well designed apps and products.

> is whether "consistency" is actually _important_ in _this_ case.  It
> may

Consistency is always of some importance. And over thinking it for
Emacs is not healthy IMO.

> indeed be, but so far nobody has provided any real support for that
> position other than vague hand-waving, and I think there's been equally
> good support for the opposition position (not saying a whole lot, I
> admit).

I have seen nothing which comes even close to warranting a departure of
the standard right hand side positioning for desktop apps.

>
> Granted, vague hand-waving is rife in the HCI field, but it's no more
> convincing for that.
>
> -Miles

This vague hand waving of which you speak is non existent. The fact that
UI controls in the same place IS beneficial surely is not disputed. Next
you'll be telling me its "vague hand waving" to have the same Desktop
key sequences to cut/paste/close windows etc across different
apps. Admittedly that, though, doesnt come into an Emacs discussion ;)

And once more you have thrown vaguely veiled scorn at relatively strong
reasons for positioning it on the right while providing
little if any support for placing it anywhere else. Is it the end of the
world to place it left? Of course not. Is it better its where it is on
most other apps? I think it is. And there is nothing "flimsy" or "wishy
washy" about that.

regards

r.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
>>> You keep calling things that are pretty obvious and core to UI design
>>> issues "flimsy" while offering little in objection. I guess your mind is
>>> made up.
>>
>> And you keep throwing up random unsubstantiated hand-waving as if it's
>> somehow authoritative.
>
> What have I said that is any way random? You made that up to camouflage
> your wishy washy defence for not supporting the rhs. There are plenty of
> authoritative HCI studies which support UI controls being consistent
> across desktop applications. I assumed you would have known that so I
> didn't go into more detail.

Emacs is not consistent "across desktop applications" in pretty much
every other aspect if we consider out-of-emacs experiences (which become
increasingly less frequent the more you learn to use Emacs for a
multitude of tasks).  We don't adopt other conventions blindly.

So if you want to make a point worth considering, repeatedly merely
stating "everybody else does it" without even bothering to address
actual usability considerations made by others will not serve to support
your point.

Mindless repetition is not adding information to intelligent discourse,
even though our culture sometimes makes that hard to forget.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, everybody.

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 01:16:08PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> > The problem is with how ``convenient'' is decided.  I suspect most
> > users nowadays will say that having the scroll bar on the right is
> > the most ``convenient''. 

> They may, but I suspect they can't actually say why...

I can.  On the right, the scroll bar doesn't get in the way, at least not
very much.  On the left, it is very close to where you're mostly
inserting/deleting/reading text, and acts like a dripping tap, a sounding
foghorn, a nagging wife, some illocatable rotting fish.  It takes over
your mind, reducing your concentration on what you're doing.

> The Emacs' position, whether one agrees with it or not, is actually
> based on some reasoning.

I think it's based on the assumption that a scroll bar is an essential
part of editing that nobody can bear to be without; that it'll be getting
used so often that nobody could possibly object to it.  I think these
assumptions warrant examination, particularly under Emacs.

> -Miles

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany)
, who uses (scroll-bar-mode -1) when inside a GUI.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

[Lots]

If you disable the scrollbar altogether anyway, it is sort of
metaphysical to argue that it would be nicer to disable it on the right
side.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> Hi, everybody.
>
> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 01:16:08PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> > The problem is with how ``convenient'' is decided.  I suspect most
>> > users nowadays will say that having the scroll bar on the right is
>> > the most ``convenient''. 
>
>> They may, but I suspect they can't actually say why...
>
> I can.  On the right, the scroll bar doesn't get in the way, at least not
> very much.  On the left, it is very close to where you're mostly
> inserting/deleting/reading text, and acts like a dripping tap, a sounding
> foghorn, a nagging wife, some illocatable rotting fish.  It takes over
> your mind, reducing your concentration on what you're doing.

It might help to reduce its size.  I use --without-toolkit-scrollbars
myself and additionally

(setq-default scroll-bar-width 15)


-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Stefan Monnier]

> It might help to reduce its size.  I use --without-toolkit-scrollbars
> myself and additionally
> (setq-default scroll-bar-width 15)

15 is reduced?  I've had it set to 6 for so long that I can't imagine
what "more than 15" could fee like,


        Stefan


PS: Oh, wait, no I can: all other apps (e.g. Firefox) have a thick
ugly scrollbar.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> It might help to reduce its size.  I use --without-toolkit-scrollbars
>> myself and additionally
>> (setq-default scroll-bar-width 15)
>
> 15 is reduced?  I've had it set to 6 for so long that I can't imagine
> what "more than 15" could fee like,

It has been smaller at one time for me, but screen resolutions have
increased.  Maybe it would make sense for such resources to be
specifiable as a float and have it measured as a multiple of the
standard font's character pitch rather than an absolute number of
pixels.

I want to be able to hit the scrollbar without squinting somewhat
reliably, and 0.8 characters are more or less what makes that convenient
for me.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "AM" == Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

AM> On the right, the scroll bar doesn't get in the way, at least not
AM> very much.

In other words, it is essentially invisible and might as well not exist
at all.  A nice narrow, neutral gray or grayish bar has just the right
visibility to provide data w/o distraction.

AM> On the left, it is very close to where you're mostly
AM> inserting/deleting/reading text,

and hense is w/in view and therefore usable.

AM> I think it's based on the assumption that a scroll bar is an
AM> essential part of editing that nobody can bear to be without; that
AM> it'll be getting used so often that nobody could possibly object
AM> to it.  I think these assumptions warrant examination, particularly
AM> under Emacs.

The most important use of the scroll bar in a keyboard-controlable app
like Emacs is as a visual reference to the size of the buffer as compared
to the size of the visible window.

That only works when it is near the text.

Most apps should have their vertical bar on the left in l2r locales and
right in r2l locales.  And they should blend into the background except
when you actually want to look at them.  Emacs --with-toolkit=athena
does that exceptionally well.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Alan Mackenzie]

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 02:02:40PM -0400, James Cloos wrote:
> >>>>> "AM" == Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> AM> On the right, the scroll bar doesn't get in the way, at least not
> AM> very much.

> In other words, it is essentially invisible and might as well not exist
> at all.  A nice narrow, neutral gray or grayish bar has just the right
> visibility to provide data w/o distraction.

No.  It's visible, but not intrusive there.  Anyhow, as I said, I run
Emacs without a scroll bar.

> AM> On the left, it is very close to where you're mostly
> AM> inserting/deleting/reading text,

> and hence is w/in view and therefore usable.

> AM> I think it's based on the assumption that a scroll bar is an
> AM> essential part of editing that nobody can bear to be without; that
> AM> it'll be getting used so often that nobody could possibly object
> AM> to it.  I think these assumptions warrant examination, particularly
> AM> under Emacs.

> The most important use of the scroll bar in a keyboard-controlable app
> like Emacs is as a visual reference to the size of the buffer as
> compared to the size of the visible window.

I would think it's more of a personal thing

> That only works when it is near the text.

I would think that's a personal thing, too.

> Most apps should have their vertical bar on the left in l2r locales and
> right in r2l locales.  And they should blend into the background except
> when you actually want to look at them.  Emacs --with-toolkit=athena
> does that exceptionally well.

Again, it's a competition between being easily visible and cluttering up
an important part of your frame.  It's a bit like the blinking cursor
debate.  I think we'd agree, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the scroll bar
position to be an option.

> James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "AM" == Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

AM> I think we'd agree, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the scroll
AM> bar position to be an option.

Yes, we (all, I'm sure) fully agree on that point.

Incidently, according to info the scroll bar position is not
configurable via X Resources, only its width is.

That should be fixed as well.  Anytime frame parameters such
as that are changed after the frame is first mapped, users are
subjected to annoyances like flashing and sometimes even bugs.
Similar examples of features better disabled by resources than
by the init file -- and which already can be -- are the toolbar
and the menubar.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Andreas Schwab]

James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:

> Incidently, according to info the scroll bar position is not
> configurable via X Resources, only its width is.

emacs.verticalScrollBars

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "AS" == Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:

>> Incidently, according to info the scroll bar position is not
>> configurable via X Resources, only its width is.

AS> emacs.verticalScrollBars

Cool.  Thanks.  It is even on the very page I didn't see it on. ☹

But that and the man page say that it only controls on or off, not
right or left.

The code (in lisp/term/x-win.el in trunk) checks for right, but
not for left, off or on.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Jan Djärv]

Andreas Schwab skrev 2010-03-14 21.38:
> James Cloos<cloos@jhcloos.com>  writes:
>
>> Incidently, according to info the scroll bar position is not
>> configurable via X Resources, only its width is.
>
> emacs.verticalScrollBars
>

The documentation isn't updated though, it only mentions on and off, not left 
and right.

	Jan D.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Jan D.]

James Cloos wrote:

> The code (in lisp/term/x-win.el in trunk) checks for right, but
> not for left, off or on.

Since left is the default, it doesn't need to, but something to remmeber 
if we should change the default.  Note that the code in x-win.el doesn't 
change the position of the scrollbar. That is done in frame.c and 
xterm.c (and corresponding tool-kit dependent files).

x-win.el just changes the customize default to be right instead of left.

	Jan D.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, James,

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 03:21:05PM -0400, James Cloos wrote:
> >>>>> "AM" == Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> AM> I think we'd agree, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the scroll
> AM> bar position to be an option.

> Yes, we (all, I'm sure) fully agree on that point.

> Incidently, according to info the scroll bar position is not
> configurable via X Resources, only its width is.

> That should be fixed as well.  Anytime frame parameters such
> as that are changed after the frame is first mapped, users are
> subjected to annoyances like flashing and sometimes even bugs.
> Similar examples of features better disabled by resources than
> by the init file -- and which already can be -- are the toolbar
> and the menubar.

This is only partly true - these features can only by {en,dis}abled by
resources on platforms which have them.  This doesn't include, e.g., the
Linux tty.  Although this tty doesn't implement a scroll bar, it can
display a menu bar.  (I'd love to find out if it can be used by a GPM
mouse; so far I've not managed to get it working.)

> -JimC

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>
> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:02:40 -0400
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org, cyd@stupidchicken.com,
> 	rms@gnu.org, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org>
> 
> The most important use of the scroll bar in a keyboard-controlable app
> like Emacs is as a visual reference to the size of the buffer as compared
> to the size of the visible window.
> 
> That only works when it is near the text.

Do you really need this indication so often as to make this a serious
argument?

> Most apps should have their vertical bar on the left in l2r locales and
> right in r2l locales.

Guess what? most apps I've seen don't change their scroll bar location
no matter which directionality is the prevailing one in the current
locale.

And what is ``r2l locale'', anyway?  Let's say I have on the same
frame one buffer with prose in R2L script, and another buffer with a C
or Lisp source -- do you want Emacs to display the scroll bar for each
buffer on different sides? in the same frame?

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> The most important use of the scroll bar in a keyboard-controlable app
>> like Emacs is as a visual reference to the size of the buffer as compared
>> to the size of the visible window.

EZ> Do you really need this indication so often as to make this a serious
EZ> argument?

Yes, I do.  Almost every day in Gnus *Aritcle* buffers; regularly when
editing outouting mail, source code, TeX, html and the like.  It is
fast, easy, does not require re-focusing my eyes.  It just works.

And it is a useful metric for how long-winded I missive might be, how
far point (assuming it is currently displayed) is from some other
section of code, and whether the file is getting long enough that it
ought to be split.

I also use the bar in 'zilla that way, although it isn't quite as good as
Emacs' and Xaw3d's implementations.  (In Seamonkey keyboard control works 
almost as well as in Emacs, so I don't need its bar for scrolling either.
Firfox, however, broke keyboard control; only there and in links' graphic
mode do I regularly need to use the bar to scroll.)

EZ> Guess what? most apps I've seen don't change their scroll bar location
EZ> no matter which directionality is the prevailing one in the current
EZ> locale.

I'm not surprised that they don't, but if that means they always have
the bar on the right, then that benefits the r2l users more than it
benefits l2r users like myself.

EZ> And what is ``r2l locale'', anyway?

Shorthand for users who do something like LANG=ar_XX.UTF-8, LANG=fa_XX.utf8
or LANG=he_XX.utf8, to pick some semi-random examples (with XX in place of
any majuscule, 2-letter country code) and thus get all of their UI elements
in r2l.  As an example, I've seen screenshots where the menus started on
the right instread of the left.

By mentioning that possibility, I was simply trying to be inclusionist
rather than exclusionist.

EZ> Let's say I have on the same frame one buffer with prose in R2L
EZ> script, and another buffer with a C or Lisp source -- do you want
EZ> Emacs to display the scroll bar for each buffer on different sides?
EZ> in the same frame?

I wouldn't.  But my point, given that I was arguing that the bar should
be closer to the text, was that if all of the text a user tends to edit
is tied to the right margin rather than to the left margin, then their
scrollbar location preferences may also be the opposite of mine, even
if their usage pattern and needs are otherwise the same.

(I hope that explains the point well enough.)

What I would want, in the case you decribe above, is to keep the bar on
the left, but have the right margin of the r2l text positioned close
enought to the left margin of the buffer, that the text would be in
about the same part of the screen as if it were l2r text.  (I got the
impression that fill-column might end up overloaded for that function
from one of the emacs-bidi threads; I am very much in favour of that
or something like that.)

I can see that this buffer is now more than twice as tall as the
frame; seems like a good point to stop writing. ;)

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:25:57 -0400
> 
> EZ> Let's say I have on the same frame one buffer with prose in R2L
> EZ> script, and another buffer with a C or Lisp source -- do you want
> EZ> Emacs to display the scroll bar for each buffer on different sides?
> EZ> in the same frame?
> 
> What I would want, in the case you decribe above, is to keep the bar on
> the left, but have the right margin of the r2l text positioned close
> enought to the left margin of the buffer, that the text would be in
> about the same part of the screen as if it were l2r text.

No application behaves like that.  I don't think Emacs needs to
reinvent the wheel.  There are enough real problems waiting to be
solved with the bidirectional editing.  Compared to them, the
scroll-bar position is a non-issue.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Óscar Fuentes]

James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:

[snip]

> The most important use of the scroll bar in a keyboard-controlable app
> like Emacs is as a visual reference to the size of the buffer as compared
> to the size of the visible window.

Agreed. Some configurations doesn't work very well for this,
though. That's the reason I configure with --whitout-toolkit-scroll-bars

> That only works when it is near the text.

I disagree. I have (vertical-scroll-bars . right) and see no decrease on
its informative purpose, even on a wide 160 column display.

Scrollbars on the left looks funny to me. Maybe because I was a Windows
user and now a KDE one, and hence I expect to see the scrollbars on the
right.

IMHO, if what RMS says about the newcomers' convenience having
preference is the definitive criteria (and I think it is a good one)
scrollbars should be on the right, where most people expect to see them
nowadays and thus decrease the weird/intimidating first impression that
Emacs may convey on prospective users.

[snip]

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Stallman]

    IMHO, if what RMS says about the newcomers' convenience having
    preference is the definitive criteria (and I think it is a good one)
    scrollbars should be on the right, where most people expect to see them
    nowadays and thus decrease the weird/intimidating first impression that
    Emacs may convey on prospective users.

Concern for newcomers does not necessarily mean doing what they
EXPECT.  It means doing what is useful for them.  Their previous
expectations are part of that question, but not necessarily the whole
of it.

It could be useful to ask some fairly new users to try both ways for a
few days and see what they prefer.  But even that is only part of it,
since the real question is what guides them to become better advanced
users subsequently.

Perhaps what we want to do is teach them not to use the scroll bar any
more.  If so, putting GTK scroll bars on the right might be good.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Lennart Borgman]

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>    IMHO, if what RMS says about the newcomers' convenience having
>    preference is the definitive criteria (and I think it is a good one)
>    scrollbars should be on the right, where most people expect to see them
>    nowadays and thus decrease the weird/intimidating first impression that
>    Emacs may convey on prospective users.
>
> Concern for newcomers does not necessarily mean doing what they
> EXPECT.  It means doing what is useful for them.  Their previous
> expectations are part of that question, but not necessarily the whole
> of it.


If you want someone to learn something then it might be a good idea
not to patronize them. It is probably better to make it easy and
obvious to find what can be useful for them. If they want to learn
they will look for it.

And who starts using Emacs without wanting to learn? ;-)

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Stallman]

    I think it's based on the assumption that a scroll bar is an essential
    part of editing that nobody can bear to be without; that it'll be getting
    used so often that nobody could possibly object to it.  I think these
    assumptions warrant examination, particularly under Emacs.

It's based on the assumption that the user will use the scroll bar to
scroll.  That's not true for all users -- for instance, I would never
use the scroll bar to scroll in Emacs, because the keyboard is so much
more convenient.

The scroll bar can also be used to see where in the buffer you are.
It is not necessary to use the scroll bar for this, since the mode
line gives the same info.  But some people may have the habit of
getting it from the scroll bar.  Maybe people who use the scroll bar
that way would prefer it on the right.

If you don't use the scroll bar, you may as well turn it off.

I expect that beginners are more likely to use the scroll bar, while
experienced users would not.  But the experienced users can turn off
the scroll bar, or move it, so we need not cater to them.  The
beginners are the most important users to think about when making this
decision.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Chong Yidong]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> It's based on the assumption that the user will use the scroll bar to
> scroll.  That's not true for all users -- for instance, I would never
> use the scroll bar to scroll in Emacs, because the keyboard is so much
> more convenient.
>
> The scroll bar can also be used to see where in the buffer you are.
> It is not necessary to use the scroll bar for this, since the mode
> line gives the same info.  But some people may have the habit of
> getting it from the scroll bar.  Maybe people who use the scroll bar
> that way would prefer it on the right.

I think the solution floated earlier can address this: those who want to
use the scroll bar as a visual aid should compile without GTK tool bars,
and we should place such tool bars on the left by default, where they
traditionally are in Motif and other old X apps.  GTK tool bars should
be placed on the right by default, like all other GTK apps.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Jan Djärv]

Chong Yidong skrev:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
>> It's based on the assumption that the user will use the scroll bar to
>> scroll.  That's not true for all users -- for instance, I would never
>> use the scroll bar to scroll in Emacs, because the keyboard is so much
>> more convenient.
>>
>> The scroll bar can also be used to see where in the buffer you are.
>> It is not necessary to use the scroll bar for this, since the mode
>> line gives the same info.  But some people may have the habit of
>> getting it from the scroll bar.  Maybe people who use the scroll bar
>> that way would prefer it on the right.
> 
> I think the solution floated earlier can address this: those who want to
> use the scroll bar as a visual aid should compile without GTK tool bars,
> and we should place such tool bars on the left by default, where they
> traditionally are in Motif and other old X apps.  GTK tool bars should
> be placed on the right by default, like all other GTK apps.
> 

I think you meant scroll bars.

	Jan D.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Stallman]

    The problem is with how ``convenient'' is decided.  I suspect most
    users nowadays will say that having the scroll bar on the right is the
    most ``convenient''.

Rather than supposing, let's ask the users what they prefer, and
why.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Daniel Pittman]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     The problem is with how ``convenient'' is decided.  I suspect most
>     users nowadays will say that having the scroll bar on the right is the
>     most ``convenient''.
>
> Rather than supposing, let's ask the users what they prefer, and why.

For what it is worth, having used Emacs for over ten years now my preference
would be to place the scroll-bar on the right by default.[1]

Over the course of that period I have used the scroll-bar on the left, for
many years, and on the right, for roughly the same period of time[2].

For my use, where I don't use it to scroll because I strongly prefer the
keyboard, and only occasionally use it as an indication of document position,
this is a nicer position than on the left for me.

I find it less visually distracting positioned out of the way, and more
consistent with other applications that I use.  These are, primarily, esthetic
issues, not practical issues.


However, I strongly agree with your later comment, Richard, that I am not the
user that you should be caring about here: after ten years of using Emacs, and
as a software developer, it wouldn't bother me where the default was,
because I know that I can change it.


I think that for a new user, even if it was the worst option[3], being
consistent with other applications by default is a good choice.

Emacs is a hard tool to learn, and it cost me a lot of suffering and tears
when I first had to use it after using GoldEd and other non-programmable (and
non-free) editors for some years.

The more non-standard things the new user is confronted with, the harder they
are going to find it to learn Emacs, and for better or worse my experience
suggests that many users are quite visually- and mouse-focused when they start
using a new software package.

Regards,
        Daniel

Footnotes: 
[1]  I would strongly oppose any movement to force people to use this, by
     removing options to hide or alter the placement of the scroll-bar, of
     course, since personal taste is naturally personal.

[2]  I swapped them over about five years back now, thinking on it.

[3]  ...the articles discussing actual research into scroll-bar placement,
     posted earlier in this thread, suggest that "on the right" was the best
     option twenty years ago, and it is now even more embedded in the learned
     experience of computing.

-- 
✣ Daniel Pittman            ✉ daniel@rimspace.net            ☎ +61 401 155 707
               ♽ made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Miles Bader]

Daniel Pittman <daniel@rimspace.net> writes:
> [3]  ...the articles discussing actual research into scroll-bar placement,
>      posted earlier in this thread, suggest that "on the right" was the best
>      option twenty years ago, and it is now even more embedded in the learned
>      experience of computing.

Note that in the articles quoted by Chong, no actual research seems to
have been done, and their reasoning isn't particularly compelling: it
comes down to "well, because people use their right hand with the
mouse", and "it reduces visual clutter".

Not obviously _wrong_ of course (you apparently feel the same way about
clutter), but not exactly a slam-dunk either...

-Miles

-- 
Americans are broad-minded people.  They'll accept the fact that a person can
be an alcoholic, a dope fiend, a wife beater, and even a newspaperman, but if
a man doesn't drive, there is something wrong with him.  -- Art Buchwald

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Yavor Doganov]

Chong Yidong wrote:
> Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
> scroll bar on the right.

Not true -- on GNUstep it is by default on the left (although it can
be controlled via the NSScrollViewInterfaceStyle user default which
was implemented at least 3-4 years ago).

David Kastrup wrote:
> But the scrollbar is on the left for a reason: _if_ you use the mouse
> for editing, you'll use it more often than not on the left (until Eli's
> work gets merged).  And the larger the windows are made horizontally,
> the more of a nuisance it is to move the mouse.

This makes sense to me.  I suspect that's one of the reasons why NeXT
made such decision.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Riley]

Yavor Doganov <yavor@gnu.org> writes:

> Chong Yidong wrote:
>> Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
>> scroll bar on the right.
>
> Not true -- on GNUstep it is by default on the left (although it can
> be controlled via the NSScrollViewInterfaceStyle user default which
> was implemented at least 3-4 years ago).

GnuStep is the benchmark? Sheesh ...

>
> David Kastrup wrote:
>> But the scrollbar is on the left for a reason: _if_ you use the mouse
>> for editing, you'll use it more often than not on the left (until Eli's
>> work gets merged).  And the larger the windows are made horizontally,
>> the more of a nuisance it is to move the mouse.
>
> This makes sense to me.  I suspect that's one of the reasons why NeXT
> made such decision.
>

It makes no sense to me. Most people I watch, and myself, position the
mouse on the right hand side of something in which we freetype. The only
time I would use a mouse in emacs would be to hilite a url maybe or to
move the scroll bar and it makes far more sense for that to be on the
right.

Still, if GnuStep has it on the left, well, ....

For me the real reason is this : I read and write left to write. I dont
want a chunk of the left hand side of my screen taken by a control I
rarely use. It seems so obvious that I kind of wonder if I am losing the
plot here and missing something so terribly obvious. But trawling back
through the thread all I see to counter this and obvious consistency
benefits is that GnuStep does it on the left (with dus respect almost
nothing uses GnuStep) and that it minimises mouse movement in an
application that is primarily keyboard driven and then ONLY if the mouse
is on the left to start with. I'm at a loss to see how those "for the
left" think it any way balances out.

Still, clearly there are a core element who feel the left is somehow the
place and I suspect the decision is made. There's probably not more to
add - and thanks for the discussion. Emacs is a wonderful product.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:

> Yavor Doganov <yavor@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Chong Yidong wrote:
>>> Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
>>> scroll bar on the right.
>>
>> Not true -- on GNUstep it is by default on the left (although it can
>> be controlled via the NSScrollViewInterfaceStyle user default which
>> was implemented at least 3-4 years ago).
>
> GnuStep is the benchmark? Sheesh ...

Anything is the benchmark if a statement about "Every graphical user
interface" is made.

>> David Kastrup wrote:
>>> But the scrollbar is on the left for a reason: _if_ you use the
>>> mouse for editing, you'll use it more often than not on the left
>>> (until Eli's work gets merged).  And the larger the windows are made
>>> horizontally, the more of a nuisance it is to move the mouse.
>>
>> This makes sense to me.  I suspect that's one of the reasons why NeXT
>> made such decision.
>
> It makes no sense to me.

Then you should reread it until it does.  You'll be better equipped to
weigh the relative advantages when you understand your opponents'
position.

> Most people I watch, and myself, position the mouse on the right hand
> side of something in which we freetype. The only time I would use a
> mouse in emacs would be to hilite a url maybe or to move the scroll
> bar and it makes far more sense for that to be on the right.

Are URLs more often than not on the right?  Does your text move only to
the right?

As I already explained: with the variable-height scrolling control of
Athena-style scrollbars (by the way: for Xaw applications like xterm,
xman, xmessage, the default is consistently on the left), it is
important to have the scrollbar close to the text in order to do aimed
scrolling.  It is very easy with this scrollbar type, of which the
toolkit-less is one, to move the beginning of a function to the top of
the screen with a single click without losing cursor position.

> For me the real reason is this : I read and write left to write. I dont
> want a chunk of the left hand side of my screen taken by a control I
> rarely use. It seems so obvious that I kind of wonder if I am losing the
> plot here and missing something so terribly obvious.

Have you disabled all window decorations as well?  And the gutter?

And anyway, the scrollbar takes the same amount of space whether left or
right.

> But trawling back through the thread all I see to counter this and
> obvious consistency benefits

There is none.  There is a familiarity benefit.  We don't give them
priority over usability, or we would not be using Emacs in the first
place.

> is that GnuStep does it on the left (with dus respect almost nothing
> uses GnuStep) and that it minimises mouse movement in an application
> that is primarily keyboard driven and then ONLY if the mouse is on the
> left to start with. I'm at a loss to see how those "for the left"
> think it any way balances out.

If there is nothing substantial on the other end of the scale...

> Still, clearly there are a core element who feel the left is somehow
> the place and I suspect the decision is made. There's probably not
> more to add - and thanks for the discussion. Emacs is a wonderful
> product.

I think you overlook that a maintainer already did that change without
even discussing it.  That's what prompted this thread.  So if there is
any "decision" being made, it would be according to your personal
preferences.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Richard Riley]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Yavor Doganov <yavor@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> Chong Yidong wrote:
>>>> Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
>>>> scroll bar on the right.
>>>
>>> Not true -- on GNUstep it is by default on the left (although it can
>>> be controlled via the NSScrollViewInterfaceStyle user default which
>>> was implemented at least 3-4 years ago).
>>
>> GnuStep is the benchmark? Sheesh ...
>
> Anything is the benchmark if a statement about "Every graphical user
> interface" is made.

The benchmark for me is that the majority use. Its that simple. We can
play silly games and point at obscure data as much as we like to win
points.

>
>>> David Kastrup wrote:
>>>> But the scrollbar is on the left for a reason: _if_ you use the
>>>> mouse for editing, you'll use it more often than not on the left
>>>> (until Eli's work gets merged).  And the larger the windows are made
>>>> horizontally, the more of a nuisance it is to move the mouse.
>>>
>>> This makes sense to me.  I suspect that's one of the reasons why NeXT
>>> made such decision.
>>
>> It makes no sense to me.
>
> Then you should reread it until it does.  You'll be better equipped to
> weigh the relative advantages when you understand your opponents'
> position.

Re-reading does not make it make any sense in comparison to other
arguments.

>
>> Most people I watch, and myself, position the mouse on the right hand
>> side of something in which we freetype. The only time I would use a
>> mouse in emacs would be to hilite a url maybe or to move the scroll
>> bar and it makes far more sense for that to be on the right.
>
> Are URLs more often than not on the right?  Does your text move only to
> the right?

Huh? What are you talking about? The point is that its not a very common
thing to do regardless. Like using the mouse to scroll.
>
> As I already explained: with the variable-height scrolling control of
> Athena-style scrollbars (by the way: for Xaw applications like xterm,
> xman, xmessage, the default is consistently on the left), it is
> important to have the scrollbar close to the text in order to do aimed
> scrolling.  It is very easy with this scrollbar type, of which the
> toolkit-less is one, to move the beginning of a function to the top of
> the screen with a single click without losing cursor position.

Yes you did. Although why I'm not sure. That in no way cancels out the
reasons for the bar NOT being on the left.

>
>> For me the real reason is this : I read and write left to write. I dont
>> want a chunk of the left hand side of my screen taken by a control I
>> rarely use. It seems so obvious that I kind of wonder if I am losing the
>> plot here and missing something so terribly obvious.
>
> Have you disabled all window decorations as well?  And the gutter?

Most. I use xmonad.

>
> And anyway, the scrollbar takes the same amount of space whether left or
> right.

Are you purposely missing the point? As you put it -reread until you
understand ;)

The point is that its rarely used a text UI such as emacs. THUS it is
not of benefit to have it "in your face". This is pretty basic UI
design. You do not present rarely used controls with a higher
precedence.

>
>> But trawling back through the thread all I see to counter this and
>> obvious consistency benefits
>
> There is none.  There is a familiarity benefit.  We don't give them
> priority over usability, or we would not be using Emacs in the first
> place.

It doesnt mean you need to pick an obscure and non standard positioning
for a commonly used UI control. And left hand side is non standard and
obscure.


>
>> is that GnuStep does it on the left (with dus respect almost nothing
>> uses GnuStep) and that it minimises mouse movement in an application
>> that is primarily keyboard driven and then ONLY if the mouse is on the
>> left to start with. I'm at a loss to see how those "for the left"
>> think it any way balances out.
>
> If there is nothing substantial on the other end of the scale...
>
>> Still, clearly there are a core element who feel the left is somehow
>> the place and I suspect the decision is made. There's probably not
>> more to add - and thanks for the discussion. Emacs is a wonderful
>> product.
>
> I think you overlook that a maintainer already did that change without
> even discussing it.  That's what prompted this thread.  So if there is
> any "decision" being made, it would be according to your personal
> preferences.

Customising functionality is always good.

I dont want a cat fight and your "re-read tile you" suggestion prompts me to bail
from this thread as your rudeness does not do you justice.

regards,

r.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Stefan Monnier]

Hmmm... the unmistakable smell of the bikeshed.


        Stefan


PS: This discussion can only be religious, because there really is no
rational reason to prefer one over the other.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Lennart Borgman]

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Stefan Monnier
<monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>
> PS: This discussion can only be religious, because there really is no
> rational reason to prefer one over the other.


There is a lot of rational reasons, but they are small. Not much to
discuss. IMO that means that following the normal conventions is
probably the best.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Stefan Monnier
> <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>>
>> PS: This discussion can only be religious, because there really is no
>> rational reason to prefer one over the other.
>
>
> There is a lot of rational reasons, but they are small. Not much to
> discuss. IMO that means that following the normal conventions is
> probably the best.

So can we please have the default on the left for Athena style widgets
with proportional scrolling, as the left _is_ the _normal_ convention
for applications using them?

The current state, installed without previous discussion, places the
scrollbar _against_ normal conventions for those widgets.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[Chong Yidong]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> So can we please have the default on the left for Athena style widgets
> with proportional scrolling, as the left _is_ the _normal_ convention
> for applications using them?

Done.

Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[martin rudalics]

 > PS: This discussion can only be religious, because there really is no
 > rational reason to prefer one over the other.

There is: `mouse-avoidance-mode' sends the mouse cursor preferably to
the right upper corner of your window (or in that direction).  So with a
scrollbar on the left you would continuously have to move the mouse
cursor from the far right of your window back to the left where the
scrollbar is.

martin, who is agnostic