Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2010-01-29 11:28 (-0800), Brendan Miller wrote:

> When I hit tab in text mode, it indents by 5 spaces. How do I change
> that? Setting tab-width doesn't seem to do the right thing.

TAB key in text-mode indents to the columns of previous line's words. If
you want to go to next tab stop, as defined in tab-stop-list variable,
use M-i. For example, first write a line like this:

    Here     are    some                     words.

Then press TAB key a couple of times on the next line. Then go to the
beginning of line and press M-i a couple of times. You should see the
difference.

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Brendan Miller]

Great, thanks!

The only problem I have, is that m-i seems to indent by 8 spaces. I
tried putting

(setq tab-width 4) in my .emacs, but that doesn't seem to change
anything... is m-i controlled by a different variable?

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> wrote:
> * 2010-01-29 11:28 (-0800), Brendan Miller wrote:
>
>> When I hit tab in text mode, it indents by 5 spaces. How do I change
>> that? Setting tab-width doesn't seem to do the right thing.
>
> TAB key in text-mode indents to the columns of previous line's words. If
> you want to go to next tab stop, as defined in tab-stop-list variable,
> use M-i. For example, first write a line like this:
>
>    Here     are    some                     words.
>
> Then press TAB key a couple of times on the next line. Then go to the
> beginning of line and press M-i a couple of times. You should see the
> difference.
>

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Tom Rauchenwald]

Brendan Miller <catphive@catphive.net> writes:

> Great, thanks!
>
> The only problem I have, is that m-i seems to indent by 8 spaces. I
> tried putting
>
> (setq tab-width 4) in my .emacs, but that doesn't seem to change
> anything... is m-i controlled by a different variable?

Try (setq-default tab-width 4)

-tom

-- 
Ob ein Sandkorn oder ein Stein,
im Wasser gehen sie beide unter.
       -- Mi-do

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Brendan Miller]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Tom Rauchenwald
<sehnsucht.nach.unendlichkeit@quantentunnel.de> wrote:
> Brendan Miller <catphive@catphive.net> writes:
>
>> Great, thanks!
>>
>> The only problem I have, is that m-i seems to indent by 8 spaces. I
>> tried putting
>>
>> (setq tab-width 4) in my .emacs, but that doesn't seem to change
>> anything... is m-i controlled by a different variable?
>
> Try (setq-default tab-width 4)

Nope. m-i still indents by 8 spaces.

I'm on emacs 23, if that matters.

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Suvayu Ali]

On Friday 29 January 2010 04:51 PM, Brendan Miller wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Tom Rauchenwald
> <sehnsucht.nach.unendlichkeit@quantentunnel.de>  wrote:
>> Brendan Miller<catphive@catphive.net>  writes:
>>
>>> Great, thanks!
>>>
>>> The only problem I have, is that m-i seems to indent by 8 spaces. I
>>> tried putting
>>>
>>> (setq tab-width 4) in my .emacs, but that doesn't seem to change
>>> anything... is m-i controlled by a different variable?
>>
>> Try (setq-default tab-width 4)
>
> Nope. m-i still indents by 8 spaces.
>
> I'm on emacs 23, if that matters.

For now you can try `M-x edit-tab-stops RET'. That allows you to edit 
the tab stops interactively. Hopefully this will be helpful.

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Tyler Smith]

Brendan Miller <catphive@catphive.net> writes:

> The only problem I have, is that m-i seems to indent by 8 spaces. I
> tried putting
>
> (setq tab-width 4) in my .emacs, but that doesn't seem to change
> anything... is m-i controlled by a different variable?

The documentation is a little confusing on this, at least to me. My
Emacs manual (info "(emacs)Text Display") says that you need to use
default-tab-width for this, as tab-width is buffer local, meaning it
only applies to the buffer you were in when you set it. However, the
help for default-tab-width (C-h v default-tab-width) says that
default-tab-width is deprecated, and tab-width should be used instead.

I think this might qualify as a buglet in the documentation, unless I'm
missing something obvious.

Tyler

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Stefan Monnier]

> The documentation is a little confusing on this, at least to me. My
> Emacs manual (info "(emacs)Text Display") says that you need to use
> default-tab-width for this, as tab-width is buffer local, meaning it
> only applies to the buffer you were in when you set it. However, the
> help for default-tab-width (C-h v default-tab-width) says that
> default-tab-width is deprecated, and tab-width should be used instead.

> I think this might qualify as a buglet in the documentation, unless I'm
> missing something obvious.

Indeed, thanks.  It is obsolete but the doc hasn't been
updated correspondingly.


        Stefan

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Fri, 2010-01-29, Tom Rauchenwald wrote:
> Brendan Miller <catphive@catphive.net> writes:
>
>> Great, thanks!
>>
>> The only problem I have, is that m-i seems to indent by 8 spaces. I
>> tried putting
>>
>> (setq tab-width 4) in my .emacs, but that doesn't seem to change
>> anything... is m-i controlled by a different variable?
>
> Try (setq-default tab-width 4)

A few people have suggested this.  Note that this redefines the
appearance *in your Emacs* of the TAB character and the text as a
whole. It will look wrong in any other program and to any other reader
who hasn't reconfigured his tools in the same way.

I have the misfortune of working with source code where half of it
uses this configuration and half doesn't.  It's pure pain; please
don't do it unless you *know* noone but you will ever have to read
this text.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .  .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Tim X]

Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:

> On Fri, 2010-01-29, Tom Rauchenwald wrote:
>> Brendan Miller <catphive@catphive.net> writes:
>>
>>> Great, thanks!
>>>
>>> The only problem I have, is that m-i seems to indent by 8 spaces. I
>>> tried putting
>>>
>>> (setq tab-width 4) in my .emacs, but that doesn't seem to change
>>> anything... is m-i controlled by a different variable?
>>
>> Try (setq-default tab-width 4)
>
> A few people have suggested this.  Note that this redefines the
> appearance *in your Emacs* of the TAB character and the text as a
> whole. It will look wrong in any other program and to any other reader
> who hasn't reconfigured his tools in the same way.
>
> I have the misfortune of working with source code where half of it
> uses this configuration and half doesn't.  It's pure pain; please
> don't do it unless you *know* noone but you will ever have to read
> this text.
>

Sorry, but I think you have things upside down. The problem you describe
is not due to people modifying tab width, but rather inconsistent use of
tabs. 

If everyone you had to work with used tabs, then it would be possible to
realise one of the great benefits of tabs. That is, we could all have
the amount of indent that we want, 2 spaces, 4, 8 10 whatever and it
wouldn't matter. 

If we insist on everyone having the same width tab stops, then really,
we have lost the benefit of tab and can just use spaces. In fact, if you
are having problems because of inconsistent use of tabs/spaces maybe the
solution is to have emacs convert all spaces to tabs and only use spaces
when you hit the tab key or have emacs convert all leading spaces to
tabs so that you don't get the mixture. There is a downside in doing
this if you are in a team using version control if your VC isn't
configured correctly as the changes will be seen as changes in content
rather than just changes in whitespace styles. 

Tim

-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Tim X]

Responding to myself to correct some errors and my misreading of the
post!

Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> writes:

> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 2010-01-29, Tom Rauchenwald wrote:
>>> Brendan Miller <catphive@catphive.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> Great, thanks!
>>>>
>>>> The only problem I have, is that m-i seems to indent by 8 spaces. I
>>>> tried putting
>>>>
>>>> (setq tab-width 4) in my .emacs, but that doesn't seem to change
>>>> anything... is m-i controlled by a different variable?
>>>
>>> Try (setq-default tab-width 4)
>>
>> A few people have suggested this.  Note that this redefines the
>> appearance *in your Emacs* of the TAB character and the text as a
>> whole. It will look wrong in any other program and to any other reader
>> who hasn't reconfigured his tools in the same way.
>>
>> I have the misfortune of working with source code where half of it
>> uses this configuration and half doesn't.  It's pure pain; please
>> don't do it unless you *know* noone but you will ever have to read
>> this text.
>>
>
> Sorry, but I think you have things upside down. The problem you describe
> is not due to people modifying tab width, but rather inconsistent use of
> tabs. 
>

On reading this back, I think I may have misunderstood what you were
saying and want to clarify. 

Having a mixture of indents which use spaces and indents that use tabs
DOES make life difficult. However, I don't believe changing the variable
default-tab-widthh affects whether tabs are used or spaces. The variable that
determines this is indent-tabs-mode. If this is set to nil, spaces will
be used instead of tabs. Changing default-tab-width only affects the
display width of tabs i.e. how many spaces used to represent a tab and
does nnot affect whether tabs are used or spaces. i.e. it only affects
how things are displayed and not what characters are inserted intot he
buffer. 

> If everyone you had to work with used tabs, then it would be possible to
> realise one of the great benefits of tabs. That is, we could all have
> the amount of indent that we want, 2 spaces, 4, 8 10 whatever and it
> wouldn't matter. 

Which, when re-reading the message I was responding to, would appear to
be what the author was saying. Saying that changing tab width would
change from using tabs to spaces is what mixed me up. i.e.  Jorgen is
correct that mixing tabs and spaces to do indenting creates a
maintenance mess. However, I bleieve he is incorrect in stating that
changing default tab width will cause spaces to be used instead of a tab char.

>
> If we insist on everyone having the same width tab stops, then really,
> we have lost the benefit of tab and can just use spaces. In fact, if you
> are having problems because of inconsistent use of tabs/spaces maybe the
> solution is to have emacs convert all spaces to tabs and only use spaces
> when you hit the tab key or have emacs convert all leading spaces to
> tabs so that you don't get the mixture. There is a downside in doing
> this if you are in a team using version control if your VC isn't
> configured correctly as the changes will be seen as changes in content
> rather than just changes in whitespace styles. 
>
Sheez, I'm not having a good day. To try and clarify. I believe it is
possible to have emacs automatically convert leading spaces into tabs
automatically and it is probably possible to have it convert back the
other way when saving files. theoretically, it should be possible to set
things up so that a mixture of indents using tabs and spaces is less of
a pain. If you convert all instances of n space characters to a tab, you
could have emacs largely deal with the pain of mixed indent styles for
you. If others in your team insist on spaces instaed of tabs (which I
think is a mistake!), you can have emacs translate all your tabs to
spaces before saving. This could give you the best of both worlds. When
editing the file, inent can be tab based and you can change the amount
(size) of the indent by changing the default tab width. To avoid
arguments with your colleagues, you can then automatically convert tabs
back to spaces before saving and putting the file into version control. 

Hope that clarifies more than cnfuses!

Tim


-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Stefan Monnier]

> If everyone you had to work with used tabs, then it would be possible to
> realise one of the great benefits of tabs. That is, we could all have
> the amount of indent that we want, 2 spaces, 4, 8 10 whatever and it
> wouldn't matter. 

That works for indentations such as

     if (foo)
       {
         blabla
       }

where indentation is always relative to previous indentation plus or
minus some fixed number of columns (typically "one tab").

But it doesn't in cases such as

   foofunc(arg1, arg2,
           arg3, arg4)

where the indentation of the second line is aligned with a particular
place in the code, so that if you use TABs for this part, it will only
be properly indentated if you use the same TAB width as was used when
the line was originally indented.


        Stefan

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Tim X]

Brendan Miller <catphive@catphive.net> writes:

> Great, thanks!
>
> The only problem I have, is that m-i seems to indent by 8 spaces. I
> tried putting
>
> (setq tab-width 4) in my .emacs, but that doesn't seem to change
> anything... is m-i controlled by a different variable?
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> wrote:
>> * 2010-01-29 11:28 (-0800), Brendan Miller wrote:
>>
>>> When I hit tab in text mode, it indents by 5 spaces. How do I change
>>> that? Setting tab-width doesn't seem to do the right thing.
>>
>> TAB key in text-mode indents to the columns of previous line's words. If
>> you want to go to next tab stop, as defined in tab-stop-list variable,
>> use M-i. For example, first write a line like this:
>>
>>    Here     are    some                     words.
>>
>> Then press TAB key a couple of times on the next line. Then go to the
>> beginning of line and press M-i a couple of times. You should see the
>> difference.
>>
>
>

You missed the critical phrase in  Teemu's response i.e.

"you want to go to next tab stop, as defined in tab-stop-list variable,"

,----[ C-h v tab-stop-list RET ]
| tab-stop-list is a variable defined in `indent.el'.
| Its value is 
| (4 8 12 16 20 24 28 32 36 40 44 48 52 56 60 64 68 72 76)
| 
| 
|   This variable is safe as a file local variable if its value
|   satisfies the predicate `listp'.
| 
| Documentation:
| List of tab stop positions used by `tab-to-tab-stop'.
| This should be a list of integers, ordered from smallest to largest.
| 
| You can customize this variable.
`----
The 'default' emacs version jumps by 8 spaces per tab stop.

Tim


-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Glauber Alex Dias Prado]

Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> writes:

> Brendan Miller <catphive@catphive.net> writes:
>
>> Great, thanks!
>>
>> The only problem I have, is that m-i seems to indent by 8 spaces. I
>> tried putting
>>
>> (setq tab-width 4) in my .emacs, but that doesn't seem to change
>> anything... is m-i controlled by a different variable?
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> wrote:
>>> * 2010-01-29 11:28 (-0800), Brendan Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I hit tab in text mode, it indents by 5 spaces. How do I change
>>>> that? Setting tab-width doesn't seem to do the right thing.
>>>
>>> TAB key in text-mode indents to the columns of previous line's words. If
>>> you want to go to next tab stop, as defined in tab-stop-list variable,
>>> use M-i. For example, first write a line like this:
>>>
>>>    Here     are    some                     words.
>>>
>>> Then press TAB key a couple of times on the next line. Then go to the
>>> beginning of line and press M-i a couple of times. You should see the
>>> difference.
>>>
>>
>>
>
> You missed the critical phrase in  Teemu's response i.e.
>
> "you want to go to next tab stop, as defined in tab-stop-list variable,"
>
> ,----[ C-h v tab-stop-list RET ]
> | tab-stop-list is a variable defined in `indent.el'.
> | Its value is 
> | (4 8 12 16 20 24 28 32 36 40 44 48 52 56 60 64 68 72 76)
> | 
> | 
> |   This variable is safe as a file local variable if its value
> |   satisfies the predicate `listp'.
> | 
> | Documentation:
> | List of tab stop positions used by `tab-to-tab-stop'.
> | This should be a list of integers, ordered from smallest to largest.
> | 
> | You can customize this variable.
> `----

Sorry not related to the original question but what do you use to have a
box like that above when writing?

> The 'default' emacs version jumps by 8 spaces per tab stop.
>
> Tim

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Tim X]

Glauber Alex Dias Prado <smade4@gmail.com> writes:

> Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> writes:
>
>> Brendan Miller <catphive@catphive.net> writes:
>>
>>> Great, thanks!
>>>
>>
>> ,----[ C-h v tab-stop-list RET ]
>> | tab-stop-list is a variable defined in `indent.el'.
>> | Its value is 
>> | (4 8 12 16 20 24 28 32 36 40 44 48 52 56 60 64 68 72 76)
>> | 
>> | 
>> |   This variable is safe as a file local variable if its value
>> |   satisfies the predicate `listp'.
>> | 
>> | Documentation:
>> | List of tab stop positions used by `tab-to-tab-stop'.
>> | This should be a list of integers, ordered from smallest to largest.
>> | 
>> | You can customize this variable.
>> `----
>
> Sorry not related to the original question but what do you use to have a
> box like that above when writing?
>

Its from boxquote.el, which is in the emacs-goodies.el file
(Debian/Ubuntu) and I think is on the emacs wiki.

Tim

>

-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Suvayu Ali]

Hi,

On Friday 29 January 2010 11:39 AM, Teemu Likonen wrote:
> * 2010-01-29 11:28 (-0800), Brendan Miller wrote:
>
>> When I hit tab in text mode, it indents by 5 spaces. How do I change
>> that? Setting tab-width doesn't seem to do the right thing.
>
> TAB key in text-mode indents to the columns of previous line's words. If
> you want to go to next tab stop, as defined in tab-stop-list variable,
> use M-i. For example, first write a line like this:
>
>      Here     are    some                     words.
>
> Then press TAB key a couple of times on the next line. Then go to the
> beginning of line and press M-i a couple of times. You should see the
> difference.

Maybe this is a little off-topic, but is their anyway to have that 
behaviour of the TAB key with source code, say C++ or Python? I would 
like to align various similar consecutive lines to make them easy to 
read. Thanks for any suggestions.

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Here     are    some                     words.
>> 
>> Then press TAB key a couple of times on the next line. Then go to the
>> beginning of line and press M-i a couple of times. You should see the
>> difference.

> Maybe this is a little off-topic, but is their anyway to have that behaviour
> of the TAB key with source code, say C++ or Python?

You can make the TAB key do whatever you want, by rebinding it to some
other command.  The command that does the above is called
`indent-relative'.


        Stefan

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Suvayu Ali]

On Monday 01 February 2010 09:04 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> Here     are    some                     words.
>>>
>>> Then press TAB key a couple of times on the next line. Then go to the
>>> beginning of line and press M-i a couple of times. You should see the
>>> difference.
>
>> Maybe this is a little off-topic, but is their anyway to have that behaviour
>> of the TAB key with source code, say C++ or Python?
>
> You can make the TAB key do whatever you want, by rebinding it to some
> other command.  The command that does the above is called
> `indent-relative'.

Thanks a lot Stefan. I bound it to `S-<iso-lefttab>' works like a charm. :)

>          Stefan

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Sun, 2010-01-31, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Friday 29 January 2010 11:39 AM, Teemu Likonen wrote:
>> * 2010-01-29 11:28 (-0800), Brendan Miller wrote:
>>
>>> When I hit tab in text mode, it indents by 5 spaces. How do I change
>>> that? Setting tab-width doesn't seem to do the right thing.
>>
>> TAB key in text-mode indents to the columns of previous line's words. If
>> you want to go to next tab stop, as defined in tab-stop-list variable,
>> use M-i. For example, first write a line like this:
>>
>>      Here     are    some                     words.
>>
>> Then press TAB key a couple of times on the next line. Then go to the
>> beginning of line and press M-i a couple of times. You should see the
>> difference.
>
> Maybe this is a little off-topic, but is their anyway to have that 
> behaviour of the TAB key with source code, say C++ or Python? I would 
> like to align various similar consecutive lines to make them easy to 
> read. Thanks for any suggestions.

Do you have any examples where the default Emacs indentation for C++
and Python isn't readable enough? I'm asking because "align various
similar consecutive lines" is one of the things those indentation
modes do already.

As a source code reader (and maintainer) I appreciate when the
indentation I see follows one of the built-in styles (and
indent-widths) so I can edit it without having to manually tweak my
indentation to keep in style.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .  .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

Re: change spaces indent in text mode?

[Suvayu Ali]

On Saturday 06 February 2010 12:21 AM, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-01-31, Suvayu Ali wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Friday 29 January 2010 11:39 AM, Teemu Likonen wrote:
>>> * 2010-01-29 11:28 (-0800), Brendan Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I hit tab in text mode, it indents by 5 spaces. How do I change
>>>> that? Setting tab-width doesn't seem to do the right thing.
>>>
>>> TAB key in text-mode indents to the columns of previous line's words. If
>>> you want to go to next tab stop, as defined in tab-stop-list variable,
>>> use M-i. For example, first write a line like this:
>>>
>>>       Here     are    some                     words.
>>>
>>> Then press TAB key a couple of times on the next line. Then go to the
>>> beginning of line and press M-i a couple of times. You should see the
>>> difference.
>>
>> Maybe this is a little off-topic, but is their anyway to have that
>> behaviour of the TAB key with source code, say C++ or Python? I would
>> like to align various similar consecutive lines to make them easy to
>> read. Thanks for any suggestions.
>
> Do you have any examples where the default Emacs indentation for C++
> and Python isn't readable enough? I'm asking because "align various
> similar consecutive lines" is one of the things those indentation
> modes do already.

I work with a data analysis framework based on C++ libraries
dynamically loaded by various python scripts. It often has code like
this,

Python:
> if rec.doCalo:
>     ## Import CaloCluster Tool
>     from DataQualityTools.DataQualityToolsConf import  DQTCaloClusterTool
>     DQTCaloClusterTool = DQTCaloClusterTool(name            = 'DQTCaloClusterTool',
>                                       histoPathBase         = "/GLOBAL/DQTCaloCluster",
>                                       doRunCosmics          = isCosmics,
>                                       doRunBeam             = isBeam,
>                                       doOfflineHists        = isOffline,
>                                       doOnlineHists         = isOnline
>                                       );
>
>     ToolSvc += DQTCaloClusterTool;
>     ManagedAthenaGlobalMon.AthenaMonTools += [ DQTCaloClusterTool ];

or C++:
> failure = failure | registerHist(fullPathMuons, m_trkeffvsLumi	= new TProfile("m_trk_trkeffvsLumi", "Trk eff per Lumi block", 1000, 0, 1000, 0, 1)).isFailure();
> failure = failure | registerHist(fullPathMuons, m_fwdetatrkeffvsLumi  = new TProfile("m_trk_fwdetatrkeffvsLumi", "Forward Eta eff per Lumi block", 1000, 0, 1000, 0, 1)).isFailure();
> failure = failure | registerHist(fullPathMuons, m_bkwdetatrkeffvsLumi = new TProfile("m_trk_bkwdetatrkeffvsLumi", "Backward Eta eff per Lumi block", 1000, 0, 1000, 0, 1)).isFailure();


As you can see, because of the long and wieldy names, aligning them
with the previous line often helps improve the readability.

> As a source code reader (and maintainer) I appreciate when the
> indentation I see follows one of the built-in styles (and
> indent-widths) so I can edit it without having to manually tweak my
> indentation to keep in style.

Would you do this some other way? Thanks for any suggestions, I 
appreciate it.

> /Jorgen
>
-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

change spaces indent in text mode?

[Brendan Miller]

When I hit tab in text mode, it indents by 5 spaces. How do I change
that? Setting tab-width doesn't seem to do the right thing.

To be clear, although I indent with the tab key, I'm not using tab
characters. I don't use tab characters anywhere.

Brendan