Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

Hi,

Sorry I lost the most recent messages because the mail engine disables
my account very often.

>
>OK, point taken. Users, newcomers, aren't
>impressed by Emacs. The don't dig the console
>and they use the mouse. And they want
>everything integrated, all tho, which is
>amusing, integration is limited to
>a single language.
>
Not only that, see below.
>
>(Maybe MS IDEs can do all of C#, VB(A), and
>MS Access now that I think about it...?)
>
Yes they can, VS code supports many of them, butt especially the most
popular.
>
>OK, now it gets totally confused %) The
>different language major modes are the absolute
>_backbone_ of Emacs as a programmer editor,
>indispensible! Obviously we want them for every
>conceivable language to be as good as possible!
>Setting up font-lock and indentation for
>a programming language major mode (which even
>I have done BTW) isn't what I thought we
>were talking about rather much more advanced
>stuff, the refactoring stuff (how ever that
>works), integrating the debugger and build
>process, and so on, and as for
>language-specifics, qualitatively different
>stuff, not just configuring and tweaking with
>the same old interface!
><http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/fps/>
>
This is something even advanced compared to a real integration we need
like unify commands bindings, interfaces and functionalities names.

I go every time to the same topic here, but all the time I only receive
complains and strong answers with strong feelings from the older
users. We NEED to update the interface (unify the bindings for all the
languages, unify packages with similar functionalities, delete unused
functionalities.) It is not a should, it is a must. 

To mention just one example: It does not make sense that C-c C-c
comments the current lines in C-mode, but sends the current sexep to
terminal in other modes, or send the messages in others. So emacs
somehow behaves as a different tool/editor for 3 different modes, so the
"unified bindings/behavior" is not an advantage anymore.

Or that we provide several options (or packages) to add parents with 300
customizable variables but a very bad default behavior. The existence of
spacemacs ergoemacs and other similar customization is a user's scream
for better defaults (I am not telling to ennable all what spacemacs
does, but we have functionalities that the users will never discover if
they don't go in the ddeep parts of the manual).

Usually the old users (who deserve the legacy behaviors), are also the
most skilled ones, so it is easier for them to add some lines to their
config, than for new users that we don't want to scare the first day
with Lisp.

>
>> This argument doesn't fly with users, because
>> newcomers usually need just one language, but
>> they need a good support for it. They will go
>> away if we don't have it, and telling them we
>> support a dozen others will not make them
>> change their minds.
>>
Sometimes new users also mix languages, but the worst supported ones are
the newer languages (Lua, Julia, Ruby, Python, C++ 11+, Rust) Which are
also what they need more often.

>> To keep Emacs alive and kicking for the
>> observable future, we need to be sure we will
>> have enough developers and contributors.
>> And since developers and contributors start
>> as users, we want to attract new users. If we
>> fail to attract them, we will quite literally
>> lose our future.
>
>OK, good point.

But also there is the fact that we are spending a lot of
effort/work/manpower in specific use cases and fancy functionalities
(web browsing, pdf reader, image shower) instead of looking and
prioritizing the general and basic editor functionalities (faster
movements commands, default bindings for comment/uncomment, select whole
line, infrastructure performance). So going to the specifics instead of
the generals.

AFAIR emacs started (and became popular) cloning the popular
functionalities in other editors and making them accessible with simple
macros. 

We just need to open sublime or athom or VS code and look all the
functionalities they provide for EDITING TEXT 2 clicks (or key binds)
far. That's the real reason of their success. Basic functionality out
of the box.

What happens now is that if a user wants a simple editor with
indentation support and syntax highlight for multiple languages, they go
for vim (it is there already, is small and has many commands for editing
text quickly, and the learning curve is similar than for emacs and much
faster/responsive). Else, if they want something advanced, then they go
for an ide or a simpler (more familiar) editor that they can start using
without reading or configuring anything, geany, athom, sublime, visual
studio code. But if the project is big with autotools or cmake they just
go for a bigger ide like kdevelor, qtcreator, eclipse, NetBeans with a
better autocompletion, debugger, compiler, packer.

Lets say for example: sublime is extensible with a simpler language
(than (lisp)) that many people use these days, it is pretty by default,
and supports many languages. It works good enough, the code is on
github, the issues, pull requests and collaboration in general is
without an arcane mailing list, and a familiar fork-joing approach. So
from the point of view of a 20 yo developers "why to us emacs?" (It is a
rhetoric context question, please don't reply to it in your answers)

So the good thing is that emacs can provide all this, but is doesn't to
have all that working it needs years (literally) of
configurations/packages. Is that what a user will chose having easier
alternatives?

>
>
>Well, obviously you worked on much bigger
>projects than I, but I did a university project
>(check out the URL in my signature). The report
>- compiled LaTeX and Biblatex, which I wrote in
>Emacs - is 153 pages. I used C++, Lisp, zsh,
>gnuplot, groff, and pic(1), and wrote all of
>that in Emacs. Even the Makefile and several
>textfiles :)
>
>So how large should a project be before Emacs
>becomes insufficient? A Quake? If so, then no,
>regretfully I wasn't part of the team...

The problem is that (in my opinion) we lost the center of what emacs
should be and where are the practical-sustainable-maintainable limits a
long time ago (the difference between "we can" vs "we should").

The program grow an grow and grow and the
unused/old/substituted/unsuccess functionalities weren't deleted.

(We added the GUI over the TUI mixing everything and adding support for
every single detail we could imagine, multi os support forced to
implement everything generic.) And as a plus the Elisp language and
interpreter, two more things to maintain and update.

To maintain-support all that with (every time) less people, we have
abandoned (not improved) the editor-ide functionalities, and the world
continued moving in the mean time. (Also some needed changes have been
delayed and arrived veeeery late because "we shouldn't convert emacs in
the other editors" or similar opinions.

So, as usual in technology, other products filled the hole thinking in
the final user and not in the developers. So, in spite of our product is
better we don't find users for it because we don't know how to present
it to the new market.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg]

Ergus wrote:

> I go every time to the same topic here, but
> all the time I only receive complains and
> strong answers with strong feelings from the
> older users.

Well, if you ever feel you get an unpleasant
answer from me, tell me immediately, thru an
off-list mail if necessary.

> We NEED to update the interface (unify the
> bindings for all the languages, unify
> packages with similar functionalities, delete
> unused functionalities.) It is not a should,
> it is a must.

Hey, man, relax. We don't need to do anything
and we certainly must not. We need food and
clothes and shelter. If you feel that what you
mention is so important, start working on it
today! It is much more rewarding and less
frustrating that trying to convince others you
are right. But as/if you do, please do continue
to tell us all about it, of course.

> To mention just one example: It does not make
> sense that C-c C-c comments the current lines
> in C-mode, but sends the current sexep to
> terminal in other modes, or send the messages
> in others. So emacs somehow behaves as
> a different tool/editor for 3 different
> modes, so the "unified bindings/behavior" is
> not an advantage anymore.

Well, Emacs isn't consistent in that sense.
I think it never will be. I don't see a huge
advantage having it consistent either, if that
is even possible, actually I see many
disadvantages to it. If the `C-c C-c', which is
a short and close (i.e. fast and good)
shortcut, if that is always to do the same
thing, many modes that do not do that _at all_
will be one short, close, and fast shortcut,
eh, "short" (... :)). Besides, people are used
to the shortcut! Changing them to have
potential future generation of Emacs users have
a more consistent interface will just make tons
of people, who already use Emacs every second
day, unhappy.

> Or that we provide several options (or
> packages) to add parents with 300
> customizable variables but a very bad default
> behavior. The existence of spacemacs
> ergoemacs and other similar customization is
> a user's scream for better defaults (I am not
> telling to ennable all what spacemacs does,
> but we have functionalities that the users
> will never discover if they don't go in the
> ddeep parts of the manual).

Find a spot and start working, is again my
piece of advice! Start small and post on
gmane.emacs.devel and see what happens.
Keep posting here as well tho. It is much
appreciated if you ever got the impression
it isn't.

> Usually the old users (who deserve the legacy
> behaviors), are also the most skilled ones,
> so it is easier for them to add some lines to
> their config, than for new users that we
> don't want to scare the first day with Lisp.

Not all new users are that afraid! Some think
Lisp is awesome and that is a big reason they
came to and stayed with Emacs. What one can do
with Lisp, in terms of Emacs, but also in terms
of Lisp itself, and actually even the very
language, Lisp, itself! Emacs user's
contribution to the Lisp world is huge.

> Sometimes new users also mix languages, but
> the worst supported ones are the newer
> languages (Lua, Julia, Ruby, Python, C++ 11+,
> Rust) Which are also what they need
> more often.

Again, pick your favorite of the ones you
mention and start working on what you think
is lacking!

> But also there is the fact that we are
> spending a lot of effort/work/manpower in
> specific use cases and fancy functionalities
> (web browsing, pdf reader, image shower)
> instead of looking and prioritizing the
> general and basic editor functionalities

OK, let me tell you straight off without being
unpleasant, I hope, this is a complete dead end
for you. Don't go there.

Because we *want* Dired, Emacs-w3m, Gnus, ERC,
and everything else! Just as much as we want
the programming modes.

There is no contradiction. On the
... contrary :)

> What happens now is that if a user wants
> a simple editor with indentation support and
> syntax highlight for multiple languages

I'm not following? We have that.

> The program grow an grow and grow and the
> unused/old/substituted/unsuccess
> functionalities weren't deleted.

IMO things that work should _never_ be deleted.
If it isn't used, like ever, perhaps move it to
ELPA. But don't delete it.

> And as a plus the Elisp language and
> interpreter, two more things to maintain
> and update.

Again, it is there because we _want_ it!

> So, in spite of our product is better [...]

Is it? The way you talk of it one would think
you wouldn't think so? But I agree, of
course :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 15.05.2019 2:54, Ergus wrote:
> To mention just one example: It does not make sense that C-c C-c
> comments the current lines in C-mode, but sends the current sexep to
> terminal in other modes, or send the messages in others.

Indeed.

Maybe you should submit a bug report about that (or see if one is 
already open).

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 15.05.2019 2:54, Ergus wrote:
>> To mention just one example: It does not make sense that C-c C-c
>> comments the current lines in C-mode, but sends the current sexep to
>> terminal in other modes, or send the messages in others.
>
> Indeed.
>
> Maybe you should submit a bug report about that (or see if one is
> already open).

As C-Mode has no associated terminal nor it composes messages, the
request would amount to "unbind C-c C-c", something no current or future
C/C++ user would benefit from.

OTOH C-Mode supports M-; (comment-dwim) which is an standard method of
(un)commenting code in Emacs.

Pretending that every mode conforms to the same rules is
counterproductive, because there are vast differences among them. We
shall strive for pragmatism, not for bureaucracy.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 15.05.2019 16:25, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> OTOH C-Mode supports M-; (comment-dwim) which is an standard method of
> (un)commenting code in Emacs.

Right. So why the other binding?

> Pretending that every mode conforms to the same rules is
> counterproductive, because there are vast differences among them.

We also have different bindings for similar things in similar modes.

> We
> shall strive for pragmatism, not for bureaucracy.

Sure, but I don't understand your negative reaction in this case.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 15.05.2019 16:25, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
>> OTOH C-Mode supports M-; (comment-dwim) which is an standard method of
>> (un)commenting code in Emacs.
>
> Right. So why the other binding?

comment-dwin != comment-region

>> Pretending that every mode conforms to the same rules is
>> counterproductive, because there are vast differences among them.
>
> We also have different bindings for similar things in similar modes.

In principle, fixing those would be beneficial. OTOH, forcing existing
users to adapt just for the cause of coherence with modes they don't use
is not desirable either.

>> We shall strive for pragmatism, not for bureaucracy.
>
> Sure, but I don't understand your negative reaction in this case.

I think I already explained the issue, but I'll put it this way: what
you would do about C-c C-c on C-Mode and how that would help their
users?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 15.05.2019 17:18, Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> comment-dwin != comment-region

Is the latter better frequently enough? If yes, why don't we have it in 
other modes?

> In principle, fixing those would be beneficial. OTOH, forcing existing
> users to adapt just for the cause of coherence with modes they don't use
> is not desirable either.

It's an investment in the future. Future users, at least. Or existing 
users who use some major modes and would benefit from consistency when 
trying out new ones. E.g. I don't use CC Mode often, and when I do, it's 
a whole new universe.

> I think I already explained the issue, but I'll put it this way: what
> you would do about C-c C-c on C-Mode and how that would help their
> users?

Pretty much what you suggested. Remove the binding and mention that in 
NEWS, together with the existing alternative.

Some users might be upset, most won't care, and some will be educated 
about the better alternative. The binding would also be freed for some 
feature in the future, like C-REPL maybe.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

>> I think I already explained the issue, but I'll put it this way: what
>> you would do about C-c C-c on C-Mode and how that would help their
>> users?
>
> Pretty much what you suggested. Remove the binding and mention that in
> NEWS, together with the existing alternative.

You forgot to mention how removing C-c C-c would help CC-Mode users.

And, as already mentioned, comment-dwim is not an alternative to
comment-region. They do different things.

> Some users might be upset, most won't care, and some will be educated
> about the better alternative. The binding would also be freed for some
> feature in the future, like C-REPL maybe.

So we have certain downsides in exchange for hypothetical future
advantages.

Different modes have different requirements and it is natural that the
same bindings do specific things on each case.

Following your logic, as we have some modes where C-c C-c sends text to
a terminal and others where it is used to indicate that the current
edition has ended (and others where it interrupts current execution, as
in Eshell) we should decide that the binding will do one and only one
thing, and remove it from all other modes where that thing does not
exists.

At the end, we deplete the available bindings from each mode just for
the cause of coherence.

Doesn't look like an improvement to me.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 15.05.2019 18:14, Óscar Fuentes wrote:

>> Pretty much what you suggested. Remove the binding and mention that in
>> NEWS, together with the existing alternative.
> 
> You forgot to mention how removing C-c C-c would help CC-Mode users.

They, in particular, won't become confused when they try 'C-c C-c' in a 
different major mode, and it either fails to work, or does something 
unexpected to them.

> And, as already mentioned, comment-dwim is not an alternative to
> comment-region. They do different things.

You ignore, like, half the things I write. I am out of this discussion.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 15.05.2019 18:14, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
>
>>> Pretty much what you suggested. Remove the binding and mention that in
>>> NEWS, together with the existing alternative.
>>
>> You forgot to mention how removing C-c C-c would help CC-Mode users.
>
> They, in particular, won't become confused when they try 'C-c C-c' in
> a different major mode, and it either fails to work, or does something
> unexpected to them.

AFAIK, modes where C-c C-c does something do not support the concept of
commenting regions. elisp-mode, for instance.

>> And, as already mentioned, comment-dwim is not an alternative to
>> comment-region. They do different things.
>
> You ignore, like, half the things I write. I am out of this discussion.

I do not understand your frustration.

The heuristics of comment-dwim not always gives the desired results. If
I know that I want to comment or uncomment a region, I prefer a method
that will do precisely that instead of something that tries to guess my
intention and can end doing the opposite thing depending on the presence
of commented-out text somewhere on the region.

Unless that by "better alternative" you referred to something else.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:

> Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:
>
>> On 15.05.2019 18:14, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
>>
>>>> Pretty much what you suggested. Remove the binding and mention that in
>>>> NEWS, together with the existing alternative.
>>>
>>> You forgot to mention how removing C-c C-c would help CC-Mode users.
>>
>> They, in particular, won't become confused when they try 'C-c C-c' in
>> a different major mode, and it either fails to work, or does something
>> unexpected to them.
>
> AFAIK, modes where C-c C-c does something do not support the concept of
> commenting regions. elisp-mode, for instance.

That was half-baked.

An hypothetical C/C++ hacker is unlikely to try C-c C-c for
commenting-out a region on an interactive mode because he will first
learn that that binding is using for sending the code to the subprocess
and, furthermore, commenting-out regions is not something that one would
do as one of his first operations when one starts using those modes.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 15.05.2019 19:05, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> An hypothetical C/C++ hacker is unlikely to try C-c C-c for
> commenting-out a region on an interactive mode

I didn't just mean interactive modes. Other modes, where C-c C-c is 
simply unbound.

> because he will first
> learn that that binding

Unlikely, but never mind.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 15.05.2019 18:51, Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> AFAIK, modes where C-c C-c does something do not support the concept of
> commenting regions. elisp-mode, for instance.

If you meant ielm (elisp-mode has no C-c C-c), then C-; works there and 
even does something. REPLs can have multiline inputs too.

>>> And, as already mentioned, comment-dwim is not an alternative to
>>> comment-region. They do different things.
>>
>> You ignore, like, half the things I write. I am out of this discussion.
> 
> I do not understand your frustration.

Because, even with the paragraph below, you haven't addressed my 
response on that subject. And it was a one-line response, FFS.

Anyway, Stefan has written a more expanded message on the same subject.

> The heuristics of comment-dwim not always gives the desired results. If
> I know that I want to comment or uncomment a region, I prefer a method
> that will do precisely that instead of something that tries to guess my
> intention and can end doing the opposite thing depending on the presence
> of commented-out text somewhere on the region.

I don't see you arguing for adding a comment-region binding in other 
major modes.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

>> The heuristics of comment-dwim not always gives the desired results. If
>> I know that I want to comment or uncomment a region, I prefer a method
>> that will do precisely that instead of something that tries to guess my
>> intention and can end doing the opposite thing depending on the presence
>> of commented-out text somewhere on the region.
>
> I don't see you arguing for adding a comment-region binding in other
> major modes.

I can show you my .emacs.el instead.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 15.05.2019 19:12, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> I can show you my .emacs.el instead.

That's not very relevant.

We are talking about the default bindings and what's best for Emacs 
users overall.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 15.05.2019 19:12, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
>> I can show you my .emacs.el instead.
>
> That's not very relevant.
>
> We are talking about the default bindings and what's best for Emacs
> users overall.

I'm way less sure than other participants on this thread about what's
best for Emacs users overall.

And on the CC-Mode C-c C-c subtopic, I put my C++ programmer's hat and
wonder how that makes Emacs better for me, appart from disrupting my
muscle memory and forcing me to adapt (1). Those improvements on
uniformity amount to nothing when you use a mode for serious work. They
are nice when read on a blog post promoting Emacs though.

1. I emphasize that I have no problem at all adapting to changes, I'm
   just providing my point of view about how much of an improvement this
   specific change would be for somebody that uses CC-Mode on a regular
   basis.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 15.05.2019 23:23, Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> And on the CC-Mode C-c C-c subtopic, I put my C++ programmer's hat and
> wonder how that makes Emacs better for me, appart from disrupting my
> muscle memory and forcing me to adapt (1). Those improvements on
> uniformity amount to nothing when you use a mode for serious work.

The irritation you're going to feel will likewise be minor. You'll put 
your own preferences into the init script and forget about the issue by 
the next day.

> 1. I emphasize that I have no problem at all adapting to changes, I'm
>     just providing my point of view about how much of an improvement this
>     specific change would be for somebody that uses CC-Mode on a regular
>     basis.

I think everybody and their dog have already agreed that the short-term 
effect on existing users who only do C++ would likely be negative, if small.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Stefan Monnier]

> And, as already mentioned, comment-dwim is not an alternative to
> comment-region. They do different things.

I beg to differ.

> At the end, we deplete the available bindings from each mode just for
> the cause of coherence.

comment-region is not specific to C-mode, so if we want to bind it (to
C-c C-c or something else), it should be done elsewhere
(e.g. prog-mode).

The way things work in Emacs is that major-modes are written by users.
Those don't directly care about distinguishing what is really specific
to this major-mode from what is rather a personal preference or what
would be a generally useful functionality: they just want to get their
major mode to behave in a particular way.

Then, over time, as this major mode and its behavior is exposed to other
users, its maintainer(s) learn to distinguish between these differences,
so they remove some settings altogether (which proved to be personal
preferences of the author, typical examples being comment-indent,
indent-tabs-mode, word-syntax for the _ character, ...), and repackage
others as separate packages usable in different major modes
(e.g. tab-always-indent, electric-indent-mode, comment-region, smie,
...).

This second step is not necessarily in the best short-term interest of
users of this mode (not only because change is annoying but also
because often as feature are made usable in several modes they end up
dropping some very specific ad-hoc behavior which is too hard to
support in a generic way, ...), but it is the best long term interest of
Emacs as a whole.


        Stefan

RE: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Drew Adams]

> > And, as already mentioned, comment-dwim is not an
> > alternative to comment-region. They do different
> > things.
> 
> I beg to differ.

And your begged difference, which presumably shows
that they do NOT do different things, is what? ;-)

I have nothing special to say here about `C-c C-c'
or `cc-mode'.  But I will say I agree with Oscar
that `comment-dwim' and `comment-region' have
different behaviors - so neither is a substitute
for the other.

In particular, `comment-region' lets you also
uncomment, including unnest, comments.

I use both, and I bind each to a short key sequence.

More precisely, I leave `comment-dwim' on `M-;'
and I bind `C-x C-;' to a command similar to
`comment-region' but that I find more useful:
`comment-region-lines'.  It comments/uncomments
whole lines.

(So it too differs from `comment-region' - so it
too is not an exact "replacement".)

As for key bindings:

Although I haven't bothered to change the binding of
`M-;', I think it's a shame and a waste to sacrifice
such a nice, short, _repeatable_ key sequence for a
command that does _nothing_ when you repeat it.

Far better to use `M-;' for some command that keeps
doing something when repeated (just hold down `M-;').
That's what Emacs should do eventually, IMHO.  No
urgency, but someday, when we find a really useful
repeatable command...

As for `comment-dwim': Since I use `C-x C-;'
(`comment-region-lines') for block commenting and
uncommenting, I never really use `M-;' for anything
other than an end-of-line comment.

`M-;' used to be bound to a command that did only
that: `indent-for-comment'.  And since that's all
I really use `M-;' for, the rest of `comment-dwim'
is, yes, wasted and replaceable by `comment-region'
or my `comment-region-line'.  `M-;' for eol comment,
`C-x C-;' for commenting/uncommenting lines.

(defun comment-region-lines (beg end &optional arg)
  "Like `comment-region', but comment/uncomment whole lines."
  (interactive "*r\nP")
  (when (> beg end)
    (setq beg  (prog1 end (setq end  beg))))
  (let ((bol  (save-excursion
                (goto-char beg)
                (line-beginning-position)))
        (eol  (save-excursion
                (goto-char end)
                (if (bolp) (point) (line-end-position)))))
    (comment-region bol eol arg)))

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:29:42AM -0700, Drew Adams wrote:
>> > And, as already mentioned, comment-dwim is not an
>> > alternative to comment-region. They do different
>> > things.
>>
>> I beg to differ.
>
>And your begged difference, which presumably shows
>that they do NOT do different things, is what? ;-)
>
>I have nothing special to say here about `C-c C-c'
>or `cc-mode'.  But I will say I agree with Oscar
>that `comment-dwim' and `comment-region' have
>different behaviors - so neither is a substitute
>for the other.
>
>In particular, `comment-region' lets you also
>uncomment, including unnest, comments.
>

To no waste bindings we could just modify comment-region to accept
negative prefix to uncomment. So C-- M-; uncoments region, and M-;
comments it. But now there will come another user saying that the dwim
version is better... we will never agree in anything this way.

>I use both, and I bind each to a short key sequence.
>
>More precisely, I leave `comment-dwim' on `M-;'
>and I bind `C-x C-;' to a command similar to
>`comment-region' but that I find more useful:
>`comment-region-lines'.  It comments/uncomments
>whole lines.
>
>(So it too differs from `comment-region' - so it
>too is not an exact "replacement".)
>
>As for key bindings:
>
>Although I haven't bothered to change the binding of
>`M-;', I think it's a shame and a waste to sacrifice
>such a nice, short, _repeatable_ key sequence for a
>command that does _nothing_ when you repeat it.
>
>Far better to use `M-;' for some command that keeps
>doing something when repeated (just hold down `M-;').
>That's what Emacs should do eventually, IMHO.  No
>urgency, but someday, when we find a really useful
>repeatable command...
>
>As for `comment-dwim': Since I use `C-x C-;'
>(`comment-region-lines') for block commenting and
>uncommenting, I never really use `M-;' for anything
>other than an end-of-line comment.
>
>`M-;' used to be bound to a command that did only
>that: `indent-for-comment'.  And since that's all
>I really use `M-;' for, the rest of `comment-dwim'
>is, yes, wasted and replaceable by `comment-region'
>or my `comment-region-line'.  `M-;' for eol comment,
>`C-x C-;' for commenting/uncommenting lines.
>
>(defun comment-region-lines (beg end &optional arg)
>  "Like `comment-region', but comment/uncomment whole lines."
>  (interactive "*r\nP")
>  (when (> beg end)
>    (setq beg  (prog1 end (setq end  beg))))
>  (let ((bol  (save-excursion
>                (goto-char beg)
>                (line-beginning-position)))
>        (eol  (save-excursion
>                (goto-char end)
>                (if (bolp) (point) (line-end-position)))))
>    (comment-region bol eol arg)))
>

This is the king of features I would really support. Enable line or
region by default. There is a package for that in melpa y find very
useful.

RE: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Drew Adams]

> >I agree with Oscar that `comment-dwim' and `comment-region'
> >have different behaviors - so neither is a substitute
> >for the other.
> >
> >In particular, `comment-region' lets you also
> >uncomment, including unnest, comments.
> 
> To no waste bindings we could just modify comment-region to accept
> negative prefix to uncomment. So C-- M-; uncoments region, and M-;
> comments it. 

I don't get your point.  `comment-region' already
uncomments, with plain `C-u'.

> But now there will come another user saying that the dwim
> version is better... we will never agree in anything this way.

The point was that both `M-;' and `comment-region'
are useful, and that neither substitutes for the other.
It doesn't matter which one someone think is "better".
They're both available.

> >I use both, and I bind each to a short key sequence.
> >
> >More precisely, I leave `comment-dwim' on `M-;'
> >and I bind `C-x C-;' to a command similar to
> >`comment-region' but that I find more useful:
> >`comment-region-lines'.  It comments/uncomments
> >whole lines.
> >
> >(So it too differs from `comment-region' - so it
> >too is not an exact "replacement".)
> >
> >As for key bindings:
> >
> >Although I haven't bothered to change the binding of
> >`M-;', I think it's a shame and a waste to sacrifice
> >such a nice, short, _repeatable_ key sequence for a
> >command that does _nothing_ when you repeat it.
> >
> >Far better to use `M-;' for some command that keeps
> >doing something when repeated (just hold down `M-;').
> >That's what Emacs should do eventually, IMHO.  No
> >urgency, but someday, when we find a really useful
> >repeatable command...
> >
> >As for `comment-dwim': Since I use `C-x C-;'
> >(`comment-region-lines') for block commenting and
> >uncommenting, I never really use `M-;' for anything
> >other than an end-of-line comment.
> >
> >`M-;' used to be bound to a command that did only
> >that: `indent-for-comment'.  And since that's all
> >I really use `M-;' for, the rest of `comment-dwim'
> >is, yes, wasted and replaceable by `comment-region'
> >or my `comment-region-line'.  `M-;' for eol comment,
> >`C-x C-;' for commenting/uncommenting lines.
> >
> >(defun comment-region-lines (beg end &optional arg)
> >  "Like `comment-region', but comment/uncomment whole lines."
> >  (interactive "*r\nP")
> >  (when (> beg end)
> >    (setq beg  (prog1 end (setq end  beg))))
> >  (let ((bol  (save-excursion
> >                (goto-char beg)
> >                (line-beginning-position)))
> >        (eol  (save-excursion
> >                (goto-char end)
> >                (if (bolp) (point) (line-end-position)))))
> >    (comment-region bol eol arg)))
> 
> This is the king of features I would really support. Enable line or
> region by default. There is a package for that in melpa y find very
> useful.

I proposed it long ago to emacs-devel.  Other,
similar commands were also discussed.  Emacs-devel
decided not to go there (by adding such a command
or by giving it - or even `comment-region' - a
binding by default).  Apparently it was thought
that `M-;' is sufficient.  Giving something a DWIM
name makes it universally useful, I guess. ;-)

Well, `comment-region' still does have a "key"
binding in vanilla Emacs (at least in some modes),
but not a _keyboard_ key binding:

comment-region is on <menu-bar> <emacs-lisp> <comment-region>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 12:53:43PM -0700, Drew Adams wrote:
>> >I agree with Oscar that `comment-dwim' and `comment-region'
>> >have different behaviors - so neither is a substitute
>> >for the other.
>> >
>> >In particular, `comment-region' lets you also
>> >uncomment, including unnest, comments.
>>
>> To no waste bindings we could just modify comment-region to accept
>> negative prefix to uncomment. So C-- M-; uncoments region, and M-;
>> comments it.
>
>I don't get your point.  `comment-region' already
>uncomments, with plain `C-u'.
>
>> But now there will come another user saying that the dwim
>> version is better... we will never agree in anything this way.
>
>The point was that both `M-;' and `comment-region'
>are useful, and that neither substitutes for the other.
>It doesn't matter which one someone think is "better".
>They're both available.
>
>> >I use both, and I bind each to a short key sequence.
>> >
>> >More precisely, I leave `comment-dwim' on `M-;'
>> >and I bind `C-x C-;' to a command similar to
>> >`comment-region' but that I find more useful:
>> >`comment-region-lines'.  It comments/uncomments
>> >whole lines.
>> >
>> >(So it too differs from `comment-region' - so it
>> >too is not an exact "replacement".)
>> >
>> >As for key bindings:
>> >
>> >Although I haven't bothered to change the binding of
>> >`M-;', I think it's a shame and a waste to sacrifice
>> >such a nice, short, _repeatable_ key sequence for a
>> >command that does _nothing_ when you repeat it.
>> >
>> >Far better to use `M-;' for some command that keeps
>> >doing something when repeated (just hold down `M-;').
>> >That's what Emacs should do eventually, IMHO.  No
>> >urgency, but someday, when we find a really useful
>> >repeatable command...
>> >
>> >As for `comment-dwim': Since I use `C-x C-;'
>> >(`comment-region-lines') for block commenting and
>> >uncommenting, I never really use `M-;' for anything
>> >other than an end-of-line comment.
>> >
>> >`M-;' used to be bound to a command that did only
>> >that: `indent-for-comment'.  And since that's all
>> >I really use `M-;' for, the rest of `comment-dwim'
>> >is, yes, wasted and replaceable by `comment-region'
>> >or my `comment-region-line'.  `M-;' for eol comment,
>> >`C-x C-;' for commenting/uncommenting lines.
>> >
>> >(defun comment-region-lines (beg end &optional arg)
>> >  "Like `comment-region', but comment/uncomment whole lines."
>> >  (interactive "*r\nP")
>> >  (when (> beg end)
>> >    (setq beg  (prog1 end (setq end  beg))))
>> >  (let ((bol  (save-excursion
>> >                (goto-char beg)
>> >                (line-beginning-position)))
>> >        (eol  (save-excursion
>> >                (goto-char end)
>> >                (if (bolp) (point) (line-end-position)))))
>> >    (comment-region bol eol arg)))
>>
>> This is the king of features I would really support. Enable line or
>> region by default. There is a package for that in melpa y find very
>> useful.
>
>I proposed it long ago to emacs-devel.  Other,
>similar commands were also discussed.  Emacs-devel
>decided not to go there (by adding such a command
>or by giving it - or even `comment-region' - a
>binding by default).  Apparently it was thought
>that `M-;' is sufficient.  Giving something a DWIM
>name makes it universally useful, I guess. ;-)
>
>Well, `comment-region' still does have a "key"
>binding in vanilla Emacs (at least in some modes),
>but not a _keyboard_ key binding:
>
But that's the point. The common features in emacs should have the same
base behavior independently of the mode (comment region, hungry deletion
indent region, send to terminal (compile and execute)/ send mail/ commit)

>comment-region is on <menu-bar> <emacs-lisp> <comment-region>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg]

Ergus wrote:

> But that's the point. The common features in
> emacs should have the same base behavior
> independently of the mode (comment region,
> hungry deletion indent region, send to
> terminal (compile and execute)/ send mail/
> commit)

It is desirable but not something to worry too
much about. Better be creative doing more
creative stuff.

Here is a list of bike tires [1]. As you see,
there are three different systems, or four
actually, and one has an extension one might
say, so let's settle for 4.5 systems. And all
those tires? Does it really make sense to have
one 56-559 and one 54-559 tire? Perhaps not!
But it's reality. And Emacs is also part
of reality.

But before we get lost in a principal
discussion... Isn't what you mention the case
already to a large extent?

When exactly is what key doing something
totally unexpected in your opinion?


[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/bike/TIRE

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 05:14:18PM +0200, �scar Fuentes wrote:
>Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:
>
>>> I think I already explained the issue, but I'll put it this way: what
>>> you would do about C-c C-c on C-Mode and how that would help their
>>> users?
>>
>> Pretty much what you suggested. Remove the binding and mention that in
>> NEWS, together with the existing alternative.
>
>You forgot to mention how removing C-c C-c would help CC-Mode users.
>
>And, as already mentioned, comment-dwim is not an alternative to
>comment-region. They do different things.
>
I agree that they are not the same, but I think also that users use one
or the other in their workflow, so wasting 2 short (comfortable)
bindings for the same action is not the right to do in any case. Also
short commands like M-; should be prefixes (like C-c or C-x).

In the unification process that's something that may be organized too:
if the short bindings must provide simple commands like comment-region,
or if they will provide more heuristic versions with dwim. And if the
opposite actions will be prefixed with C-u or C--

>> Some users might be upset, most won't care, and some will be educated
>> about the better alternative. The binding would also be freed for some
>> feature in the future, like C-REPL maybe.
>
>So we have certain downsides in exchange for hypothetical future
>advantages.
>
>Different modes have different requirements and it is natural that the
>same bindings do specific things on each case.
>

Comment region is common to all languages, and send to terminal (or
compile and execute) is common to most languages.
 
>Following your logic, as we have some modes where C-c C-c sends text to
>a terminal and others where it is used to indicate that the current
>edition has ended (and others where it interrupts current execution, as
>in Eshell) we should decide that the binding will do one and only one
>thing, and remove it from all other modes where that thing does not
>exists.
>
So... I am scared now to be sincere here... but yes. That's better (and
more logical) than confusing and scare the users. Any way the bindings
must be associated with primitive actions (most primitive and abstract
the best because they will be applicable to more possible actions in
more options) so the derived modes just need to re-implement the action
but if they rebind the primitive in their config they still will keep
uniformity.
>
>At the end, we deplete the available bindings from each mode just for
>the cause of coherence.
>
But we won't have any conflict with external packages in some modes and
not in others because the actions and the reserved bindings will be
clear..
>
>Doesn't look like an improvement to me.
>
>
If everything is organized in advance it will be, actually it may
simplify and reduce a lot of redundant code, reduce the manual (good for
developers and the users because will need to read less to start
working), avoid conflicts in the mailing list (and discussions like
this). Help external developers to provide better packages at leas more
organized and standard without conflicts with the internal
functionalities.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg]

Ergus wrote:

> So... I am scared now to be sincere here...
> but yes. That's better (and more logical)
> than confusing and scare the users.

Again this talk about scaring the users.
Are computer people so darn afraid and fragile
these days? Without boasting, let me boast that
when I started Emacs the very first time,
I wasn't the least scared, in fact I thought it
was awesome, including the Lisp part, and
I have used it ever since.

> If everything is organized in advance it will
> be, actually it may simplify and reduce a lot
> of redundant code, reduce the manual (good
> for developers and the users because will
> need to read less to start working), avoid
> conflicts in the mailing list (and
> discussions like this). Help external
> developers to provide better packages at leas
> more organized and standard without conflicts
> with the internal functionalities.

??? All that will happen from changing a bunch
of keybindings?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg]

Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> So we have certain downsides in exchange for
> hypothetical future advantages.
>
> Different modes have different requirements
> and it is natural that the same bindings do
> specific things on each case.
>
> Following your logic, as we have some modes
> where C-c C-c sends text to a terminal and
> others where it is used to indicate that the
> current edition has ended (and others where
> it interrupts current execution, as in
> Eshell) we should decide that the binding
> will do one and only one thing, and remove it
> from all other modes where that thing does
> not exists.
>
> At the end, we deplete the available bindings
> from each mode just for the cause
> of coherence.
>
> Doesn't look like an improvement to me.

Agree 100%!

_Nothing_ that spans across a huge area of
<whatever> is *ever* consistent. Go by bike
thru the city at night and look for it.
You won't find it. And not just because the
city is dark at night!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 05:45:48PM +0300, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
>On 15.05.2019 17:18, �scar Fuentes wrote:
>
>>comment-dwin != comment-region
>
>Is the latter better frequently enough? If yes, why don't we have it 
>in other modes?
>
>>In principle, fixing those would be beneficial. OTOH, forcing existing
>>users to adapt just for the cause of coherence with modes they don't use
>>is not desirable either.
>
>It's an investment in the future. Future users, at least. Or existing 
>users who use some major modes and would benefit from consistency when 
>trying out new ones. E.g. I don't use CC Mode often, and when I do, 
>it's a whole new universe.
>
+1000 points to this comment from my side.

>>I think I already explained the issue, but I'll put it this way: what
>>you would do about C-c C-c on C-Mode and how that would help their
>>users?
>
>Pretty much what you suggested. Remove the binding and mention that in 
>NEWS, together with the existing alternative.
>
>Some users might be upset, most won't care, and some will be educated 
>about the better alternative. The binding would also be freed for some 
>feature in the future, like C-REPL maybe.
>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 04:18:26PM +0200, �scar Fuentes wrote:
>Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:
>
>> On 15.05.2019 16:25, �scar Fuentes wrote:
>>> OTOH C-Mode supports M-; (comment-dwim) which is an standard method of
>>> (un)commenting code in Emacs.
>>
>> Right. So why the other binding?
>
>comment-dwin != comment-region
>
>>> Pretending that every mode conforms to the same rules is
>>> counterproductive, because there are vast differences among them.
>>
>> We also have different bindings for similar things in similar modes.
>
>In principle, fixing those would be beneficial. OTOH, forcing existing
>users to adapt just for the cause of coherence with modes they don't use
>is not desirable either.
>
>>> We shall strive for pragmatism, not for bureaucracy.
>>
>> Sure, but I don't understand your negative reaction in this case.
>
>I think I already explained the issue, but I'll put it this way: what
>you would do about C-c C-c on C-Mode and how that would help their
>users?
>
>
Oscar changes and sooner or latter they will arrive the uniformity is
good for the users and for the developers. It can simplify code and
documentation, reduce learning curve, improve external packages avoiding
potential colapses with specific modes behaviors... and the only thin
is that some users get annoyed on the beginning, but doing it well the
advantage (short, medium and long term) is more than evident.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Stefan Monnier]

> As C-Mode has no associated terminal nor it composes messages, the
> request would amount to "unbind C-c C-c",

That's right.

In my book, prog-mode should bind C-c C-c to `compile` and C-mode has no
need to have its own binding for it (because I can't think of a better
way to "compile/run" C code than via `compile`).  And it definitely
doesn't need a specific binding for comment-region since M-; already
covers this need.

> something no current or future C/C++ user would benefit from.

They would because the bindings would be more uniform across modes.

> Pretending that every mode conforms to the same rules is
> counterproductive, because there are vast differences among them.

Pretending that every detail of every major mode is unique is similarly
counter-productive.

> We shall strive for pragmatism, not for bureaucracy.

This is not about bureaucracy.  It's actually about streamlining the
overall system (by removing an unneeded chunk of code from CC-mode in
this case).

> comment-dwin != comment-region

I don't think that justifies having both bind to such short
key-sequences, nor does it justify binding comment-region to
a key-sequence usually bound to something completely unrelated.

> In principle, fixing those would be beneficial. OTOH, forcing existing
> users to adapt just for the cause of coherence with modes they don't use
> is not desirable either.

Short term pain for longer term gain.
There's no question that it's a tradeoff.

This particular C-c C-c binding in CC-mode has been on the "short term
gain for long term pain" for more than 10 years.


        Stefan

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> As C-Mode has no associated terminal nor it composes messages, the
>> request would amount to "unbind C-c C-c",
>
> That's right.
>
> In my book, prog-mode should bind C-c C-c to `compile`

That sounds good.

>> Pretending that every mode conforms to the same rules is
>> counterproductive, because there are vast differences among them.
>
> Pretending that every detail of every major mode is unique is similarly
> counter-productive.

Nobody argued for that.

About the pain associated with change: I started using Emacs for coding
C++. When years later I migrated to a new, lispy language, which mode I
derived from elisp-mode, guess what keybinding I copied from CC-Mode.

Changing long-established things that are deeply engraved in our muscle
memory is not easy, and on that aspect I can sympathize with the CC-Mode
maintainer.

I, personally, would accept your suggested change, adapt my config and
be done with it, but it is natural that others would react with
irritation.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Stefan Monnier]

> I, personally, would accept your suggested change, adapt my config and
> be done with it, but it is natural that others would react with
> irritation.

I know it's natural.
I also get annoyed by some of those changes (including some that I install).
But maintainers have to look further than that (although they have to
take it into account).


        Stefan

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[John Yates]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:56 AM Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
wrote:
>
> I know it's natural.
> I also get annoyed by some of those changes (including some that I
install).
> But maintainers have to look further than that (although they have to
> take it into account).

I have been using emacs since 1992 (Lucid emacs at Apollo Computer).
I am approaching 70 and still happy to change habits.  I am far more
concerned about emacs attracting new converts and new development
talent than humoring crotchety current users.  (Does anyone really
think that they will abandon the tribe?)  All reasonably well thought
out changes that make emacs more regular and easier for newbies to
master have my vote.

/john

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 01:30:56PM -0400, John Yates wrote:
>On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:56 AM Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
>wrote:
>>
>> I know it's natural.
>> I also get annoyed by some of those changes (including some that I
>install).
>> But maintainers have to look further than that (although they have to
>> take it into account).
>
>I have been using emacs since 1992 (Lucid emacs at Apollo Computer).
>I am approaching 70 and still happy to change habits.  I am far more
>concerned about emacs attracting new converts and new development
>talent than humoring crotchety current users.  (Does anyone really
>think that they will abandon the tribe?)  All reasonably well thought
>out changes that make emacs more regular and easier for newbies to
>master have my vote.
>
That's the attitude that makes emacs survive. 

>/john

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 04:06:42PM +0300, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
>On 15.05.2019 2:54, Ergus wrote:
>>To mention just one example: It does not make sense that C-c C-c
>>comments the current lines in C-mode, but sends the current sexep to
>>terminal in other modes, or send the messages in others.
>
>Indeed.
>
>Maybe you should submit a bug report about that (or see if one is 
>already open).
>
I could report that, I could even try to fix that myself and hope Alan
accepts the fix, but the problem is the social attitude about these kind
of changes.

Sometimes a benevolent dictator (or a less democratic management) is
needed to make things work. And I can't pretend to help that direction
because I am probably the less experiences and with least contributions
to the project.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 15.05.2019 23:15, Ergus wrote:
> I could report that, I could even try to fix that myself and hope Alan
> accepts the fix, but the problem is the social attitude about these kind
> of changes.
> 
> Sometimes a benevolent dictator (or a less democratic management) is
> needed to make things work. And I can't pretend to help that direction
> because I am probably the less experiences and with least contributions
> to the project.

M-x report-emacs-bug

You describe the problem and your personal opinion, and leave it at 
that. That's the contribution.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:21:11PM +0300, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
>On 15.05.2019 23:15, Ergus wrote:
>>I could report that, I could even try to fix that myself and hope Alan
>>accepts the fix, but the problem is the social attitude about these kind
>>of changes.
>>
>>Sometimes a benevolent dictator (or a less democratic management) is
>>needed to make things work. And I can't pretend to help that direction
>>because I am probably the less experiences and with least contributions
>>to the project.
>
>M-x report-emacs-bug
>
>You describe the problem and your personal opinion, and leave it at 
>that. That's the contribution.
>
I know, but the problem is something I can even fix, but if there is not
agreement about how to fix it, or even if it should be changed, so it
will be just a bug more but like whole-line-or-region behavior, initial
script for new users, better defaults, indent-with-tabs align with
spaces, the problem is really there, the attitude about core changes.

Look how long this thread became with a single example I mention. And we
still don't have solution for it.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 15.05.2019 23:57, Ergus wrote:
> I know, but the problem is something I can even fix, but if there is not
> agreement about how to fix it, or even if it should be changed, so it
> will be just a bug more but like whole-line-or-region behavior, initial
> script for new users, better defaults, indent-with-tabs align with
> spaces, the problem is really there, the attitude about core changes.

What are you trying to accomplish with this email?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:00:32AM +0300, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
>On 15.05.2019 23:57, Ergus wrote:
>>I know, but the problem is something I can even fix, but if there is not
>>agreement about how to fix it, or even if it should be changed, so it
>>will be just a bug more but like whole-line-or-region behavior, initial
>>script for new users, better defaults, indent-with-tabs align with
>>spaces, the problem is really there, the attitude about core changes.
>
>What are you trying to accomplish with this email?

That there are many pending bugs already to add one more for something
that others consider a feature and don't want to be change. 

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 16.05.2019 0:17, Ergus wrote:
> That there are many pending bugs already to add one more for something
> that others consider a feature and don't want to be change.

That's not an answer to the question.

I can only repeat my advice. Venting emotions is healthy and all, but 
the main vehicle with which we drive change is bug reports.

Uniformity (was: Is Elisp really that slow?)

[Stefan Monnier]

> To mention just one example: It does not make sense that C-c C-c
> comments the current lines in C-mode, but sends the current sexep to
> terminal in other modes, or send the messages in others.

AFAIK C-c C-c should always mean some kind of "OK, I'm done with the
edit, now do what needs to be done with it", I believe many modes
already follow this, but some modes (such as C-mode) instead follow the
old "convention" of binding C-c C-c to comment-region (this convention
became redundant in Emacs-21 where M-; was extended to cover
comment-region).

I agree this is a bug/misfeature and I encourage you to report it as such.

Unifying behavior between different major modes is something important,
IMO, and it's been the focus of a lot of my work on Emacs, but since it
requires changing existing packages (with no immediate benefit to those
packages nor their users) it has to work against inertia.

> Sometimes new users also mix languages, but the worst supported ones are
> the newer languages (Lua, Julia, Ruby, Python, C++ 11+, Rust) Which are
> also what they need more often.

In which sense are Python and C++ among the worst supported ones (I
don't have enough knowledge of the modes for the other languages you
mention to include them here, but I'm also mildly surprised about them
being in your list).

IOW which languages do you consider have better support (in Emacs) than
Lua, Julia, Ruby, Python, C++ 11+, or Rust?

> But also there is the fact that we are spending a lot of
> effort/work/manpower in specific use cases and fancy functionalities
> (web browsing, pdf reader, image shower) instead of looking and

[ FWIW, I don't think this is a zero-sum game here, so improvements in
  those areas don't necessarily impact improvement in other areas.  ]

> So, as usual in technology, other products filled the hole thinking in
> the final user and not in the developers. So, in spite of our product is
> better we don't find users for it because we don't know how to present
> it to the new market.

Right.  I wouldn't invest money in Emacs, indeed.  But we're not driven
by money, luckily, so matters of "market" don't drive us.  I have no
hope/intention of making Emacs into the dominant editor "on the market".
Instead, I try to improve Emacs as much as I can so as to make it as
pleasant as possible *for Emacs users and hackers*.

Emacs fills a particular niche nowadays and trying to make it
compete against something like Sublime is not only unlikely to succeed
but it's likely to make you lose your niche (because it'll be
basically a different text editor).

IOW, if I were starting from scratch, I'd implement my editor very
differently.  But I don't think we can realistically get there from
where we are (other than starting from scratch, that is).


        Stefan

Re: Uniformity

[Óscar Fuentes]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> To mention just one example: It does not make sense that C-c C-c
>> comments the current lines in C-mode, but sends the current sexep to
>> terminal in other modes, or send the messages in others.
>
> AFAIK C-c C-c should always mean some kind of "OK, I'm done with the
> edit, now do what needs to be done with it", I believe many modes
> already follow this, but some modes (such as C-mode) instead follow the
> old "convention" of binding C-c C-c to comment-region (this convention
> became redundant in Emacs-21 where M-; was extended to cover
> comment-region).
>
> I agree this is a bug/misfeature and I encourage you to report it as such.
>
> Unifying behavior between different major modes is something important,
> IMO,

On this case, there is no behavior to be unified. The semantics that you
attribute to C-c C-c do not apply to CC-Mode.

>> Sometimes new users also mix languages, but the worst supported ones are
>> the newer languages (Lua, Julia, Ruby, Python, C++ 11+, Rust) Which are
>> also what they need more often.
>
> In which sense are Python and C++ among the worst supported ones (I
> don't have enough knowledge of the modes for the other languages you
> mention to include them here, but I'm also mildly surprised about them
> being in your list).

What I can say about C++ is that, nowadays, CC-Mode doesn't recognize
language keywords, not to mention proper fontification and indentation.
Not even for post-C++11 features, but for C++98 as well (at least the
fontification part).

I could mail-bomb the CC-Mode maintainer with bugs and feature requests,
but I wont because it is totally unreasonable to expect from a volunteer
working on his free time to do a job that require teams of especialists
working full time for years.

> IOW which languages do you consider have better support (in Emacs) than
> Lua, Julia, Ruby, Python, C++ 11+, or Rust?

Lisp, of course :-)

And, just to mention a modern language, Clojure. But that's cheating :-)

Re: Uniformity

[Stefan Monnier]

>> IOW which languages do you consider have better support (in Emacs) than
>> Lua, Julia, Ruby, Python, C++ 11+, or Rust?
> Lisp, of course :-)
> And, just to mention a modern language, Clojure. But that's cheating :-)

"Less well then Lisp" seems pretty far from "the worst supported ones".


        Stefan

Re: Uniformity (was: Is Elisp really that slow?)

[Ergus]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:07:50AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> To mention just one example: It does not make sense that C-c C-c
>> comments the current lines in C-mode, but sends the current sexep to
>> terminal in other modes, or send the messages in others.
>
>AFAIK C-c C-c should always mean some kind of "OK, I'm done with the
>edit, now do what needs to be done with it", I believe many modes
>already follow this, but some modes (such as C-mode) instead follow the
>old "convention" of binding C-c C-c to comment-region (this convention
>became redundant in Emacs-21 where M-; was extended to cover
>comment-region).
>
>I agree this is a bug/misfeature and I encourage you to report it as such.
>
>Unifying behavior between different major modes is something important,
>IMO, and it's been the focus of a lot of my work on Emacs, but since it
>requires changing existing packages (with no immediate benefit to those
>packages nor their users) it has to work against inertia.
>
>> Sometimes new users also mix languages, but the worst supported ones are
>> the newer languages (Lua, Julia, Ruby, Python, C++ 11+, Rust) Which are
>> also what they need more often.
>
>In which sense are Python and C++ among the worst supported ones (I
>don't have enough knowledge of the modes for the other languages you
>mention to include them here, but I'm also mildly surprised about them
>being in your list).
>
>IOW which languages do you consider have better support (in Emacs) than
>Lua, Julia, Ruby, Python, C++ 11+, or Rust?
>
C is better supported than C. Python is actually tricky because without
elpy the python mode is VERY limited. Rust is not even supported (no
colors or indentation even.) Lua support is very basic and without the
extra packages it is close to useless for a real Lua programmer (like
me). On the other hand considering also flymake it supports just a
subset of those and it is not modular as flycheck; but then the user
needs to configure it (a LOT).

C++ does the very basic by default and it has also some performance
issues (which Alan is fixing I think, but there is not a crear soluution
for them).

>> But also there is the fact that we are spending a lot of
>> effort/work/manpower in specific use cases and fancy functionalities
>> (web browsing, pdf reader, image shower) instead of looking and
>
>[ FWIW, I don't think this is a zero-sum game here, so improvements in
>  those areas don't necessarily impact improvement in other areas.  ]
>
>> So, as usual in technology, other products filled the hole thinking in
>> the final user and not in the developers. So, in spite of our product is
>> better we don't find users for it because we don't know how to present
>> it to the new market.
>
I refer to market as a social interaction organization based in needs
and products to satisfy them

>Right.  I wouldn't invest money in Emacs, indeed.  But we're not driven
>by money, luckily, so matters of "market" don't drive us.  I have no
>hope/intention of making Emacs into the dominant editor "on the market".
>Instead, I try to improve Emacs as much as I can so as to make it as
>pleasant as possible *for Emacs users and hackers*.
>
>Emacs fills a particular niche nowadays and trying to make it
>compete against something like Sublime is not only unlikely to succeed
>but it's likely to make you lose your niche (because it'll be
>basically a different text editor).
>
>IOW, if I were starting from scratch, I'd implement my editor very
>differently.  But I don't think we can realistically get there from
>where we are (other than starting from scratch, that is).
>
>
>        Stefan
>
>

Re: Uniformity (was: Is Elisp really that slow?)

[Emanuel Berg]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> Right. I wouldn't invest money in Emacs,
> indeed. But we're not driven by money,
> luckily, so matters of "market" don't drive
> us. I have no hope/intention of making Emacs
> into the dominant editor "on the market".
> Instead, I try to improve Emacs as much as
> I can so as to make it as pleasant as
> possible *for Emacs users and hackers*.
>
> Emacs fills a particular niche nowadays and
> trying to make it compete against something
> like Sublime is not only unlikely to succeed
> but it's likely to make you lose your niche
> (because it'll be basically a different text
> editor).
>
> IOW, if I were starting from scratch, I'd
> implement my editor very differently.
> But I don't think we can realistically get
> there from where we are (other than starting
> from scratch, that is).

Agree 100%.

We don't need to compete with anyone. We have
our own software which we are happy with.

We would like others to come to us, but we
can't force them and we don't want to
try, either.

Emacs is good but as with everything else it
can always get better. That is not a bad thing,
it is a good thing, and it is part of the game.

So _join the game_ at whatever level or place
you'd like to be, is much better than
complaining here Emacs isn't as good as some
other editor or IDE.

Just do it! Maybe you even grow wings, like
Nike, who isn't a shoe brand, if anyone thought
so...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 01:54:12 +0200
> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
> 
> But also there is the fact that we are spending a lot of
> effort/work/manpower in specific use cases and fancy functionalities
> (web browsing, pdf reader, image shower) instead of looking and
> prioritizing the general and basic editor functionalities (faster
> movements commands, default bindings for comment/uncomment, select whole
> line, infrastructure performance).

There's no "we".  Each developer and contributor does what they think
is important/interesting/fun for them.  You can only call for
implementing some important functionality, but have no real
instruments to make that happen, except do it yourself (which might
not be possible due to lack of knowledge/talent/time).  Whether people
will follow your lead is entirely up to them.  Case in point: IDE
features.  We know for a long time we lag in this department, and
there were numerous calls for working on the related features.  The
result is before your eyes.

> AFAIR emacs started (and became popular) cloning the popular
> functionalities in other editors and making them accessible with simple
> macros. 

Actually, Emacs pioneered many features that didn't exist at all in
other editors.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Case in point: IDE features. We know for a long time we lag in this
> department, and there were numerous calls for working on the related
> features. The result is before your eyes.

Take a look outside Savannah and you will see that quite a lot of work
was done on that regard, at least for C++ IDE features.

The key part of the above paragraph is "outside Savannah".

>> AFAIR emacs started (and became popular) cloning the popular
>> functionalities in other editors and making them accessible with simple
>> macros. 
>
> Actually, Emacs pioneered many features that didn't exist at all in
> other editors.

So true.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
> Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 17:40:24 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Case in point: IDE features. We know for a long time we lag in this
> > department, and there were numerous calls for working on the related
> > features. The result is before your eyes.
> 
> Take a look outside Savannah and you will see that quite a lot of work
> was done on that regard, at least for C++ IDE features.
> 
> The key part of the above paragraph is "outside Savannah".

"Outside Savannah" is not relevant when we talk about Emacs.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Tadeus Prastowo]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 6:14 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> > From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
> > Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 17:40:24 +0200
> >
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> >
> > > Case in point: IDE features. We know for a long time we lag in this
> > > department, and there were numerous calls for working on the related
> > > features. The result is before your eyes.
> >
> > Take a look outside Savannah and you will see that quite a lot of work
> > was done on that regard, at least for C++ IDE features.
> >
> > The key part of the above paragraph is "outside Savannah".
>
> "Outside Savannah" is not relevant when we talk about Emacs.

Assuming that the authors have no problem assigning their copyrights
to FSF, what prevents the outside work from being integrated into
Emacs in Savannah to improve Emacs's C++ IDE features?

-- 
Best regards,
Tadeus

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 497 bytes --]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 06:23:10PM +0200, Tadeus Prastowo wrote:

[...]

> Assuming that the authors have no problem assigning their copyrights
> to FSF, what prevents the outside work from being integrated into
> Emacs in Savannah to improve Emacs's C++ IDE features?

You can't make working code by piling things up. You need some
"organizational principle" and some quality management. That's
the hard work maintainers do. Sometimes they have to reject patches.

Cheers
-- tomás

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Tadeus Prastowo <tadeus.prastowo@unitn.it>
> Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 18:23:10 +0200
> 
> > "Outside Savannah" is not relevant when we talk about Emacs.
> 
> Assuming that the authors have no problem assigning their copyrights
> to FSF, what prevents the outside work from being integrated into
> Emacs in Savannah to improve Emacs's C++ IDE features?

Under those assumptions, and if that work doesn't use any non-free
software, nothing.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> > "Outside Savannah" is not relevant when we talk about Emacs.

If people are implementing the features but can't be integrated in stock
Emacs, the Savannah boundary becomes relevant.

>> Assuming that the authors have no problem assigning their copyrights
>> to FSF, what prevents the outside work from being integrated into
>> Emacs in Savannah to improve Emacs's C++ IDE features?
>
> Under those assumptions, and if that work doesn't use any non-free
> software, nothing.

Unfortunately, this is not true.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
> Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 22:09:32 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> > "Outside Savannah" is not relevant when we talk about Emacs.
> 
> If people are implementing the features but can't be integrated in stock
> Emacs, the Savannah boundary becomes relevant.

Not for this thread, which deals specifically with what's available in
Emacs OOB.

> >> Assuming that the authors have no problem assigning their copyrights
> >> to FSF, what prevents the outside work from being integrated into
> >> Emacs in Savannah to improve Emacs's C++ IDE features?
> >
> > Under those assumptions, and if that work doesn't use any non-free
> > software, nothing.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is not true.

Yes, it is.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
>> Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 22:09:32 +0200
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> >> > "Outside Savannah" is not relevant when we talk about Emacs.
>> 
>> If people are implementing the features but can't be integrated in stock
>> Emacs, the Savannah boundary becomes relevant.
>
> Not for this thread, which deals specifically with what's available in
> Emacs OOB.

I'm sure the authors of those packages would be happy to see them
integrated on Emacs but...

>> >> Assuming that the authors have no problem assigning their copyrights
>> >> to FSF, what prevents the outside work from being integrated into
>> >> Emacs in Savannah to improve Emacs's C++ IDE features?
>> >
>> > Under those assumptions, and if that work doesn't use any non-free
>> > software, nothing.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, this is not true.
>
> Yes, it is.

... they work on top of Clang which, as you very well know, exclude them
from being incorporated in Emacs.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
> Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 15:40:02 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
> >> Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 22:09:32 +0200
> >> 
> >> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> >> 
> >> >> > "Outside Savannah" is not relevant when we talk about Emacs.
> >> 
> >> If people are implementing the features but can't be integrated in stock
> >> Emacs, the Savannah boundary becomes relevant.
> >
> > Not for this thread, which deals specifically with what's available in
> > Emacs OOB.
> 
> I'm sure the authors of those packages would be happy to see them
> integrated on Emacs but...

It frequently is not enough to be happy about including something,
there are other factors.

> >> >> Assuming that the authors have no problem assigning their copyrights
> >> >> to FSF, what prevents the outside work from being integrated into
> >> >> Emacs in Savannah to improve Emacs's C++ IDE features?
> >> >
> >> > Under those assumptions, and if that work doesn't use any non-free
> >> > software, nothing.
> >> 
> >> Unfortunately, this is not true.
> >
> > Yes, it is.
> 
> ... they work on top of Clang which, as you very well know, exclude them
> from being incorporated in Emacs.

It does?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:14:10PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: �scar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
>> Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 17:40:24 +0200
>>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>> > Case in point: IDE features. We know for a long time we lag in this
>> > department, and there were numerous calls for working on the related
>> > features. The result is before your eyes.
>>
>> Take a look outside Savannah and you will see that quite a lot of work
>> was done on that regard, at least for C++ IDE features.
>>
>> The key part of the above paragraph is "outside Savannah".
>
>"Outside Savannah" is not relevant when we talk about Emacs.
>
Hi Eli:

We are far from becoming a toxic community, but new/different ideas are
not really very welcome and sometimes the arguments are like "it has
always been like that", "old users don't want that change".

The conservative attitude in emacs development group (apart from the
technical obstacles like the workflow and the paperwork and so on) gives
the idea of a closed environment (that actually it is from the
development point of view because we are like frozen in the past) where
only very experts are welcome (that's the vision people have from
outside) so very few melpa developers are really interested to face all
those issues to contribute.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 23:09:24 +0200
> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> We are far from becoming a toxic community, but new/different ideas are
> not really very welcome and sometimes the arguments are like "it has
> always been like that", "old users don't want that change".

Really?  You've just went through a process of proposing and
implementing a new feature -- did you feel your idea was "not really
welcome"?

> The conservative attitude in emacs development group (apart from the
> technical obstacles like the workflow and the paperwork and so on) gives
> the idea of a closed environment (that actually it is from the
> development point of view because we are like frozen in the past) where
> only very experts are welcome (that's the vision people have from
> outside) so very few melpa developers are really interested to face all
> those issues to contribute.

Is this your experience from implementing the fill-column indicator?
If so, how do you explain that you, as a relative non-expert, were
welcome in that case?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 05:12:22PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 23:09:24 +0200
>> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>>

Hi Eli. Sorry, maybe this email sounds stronger than the intention.

>> We are far from becoming a toxic community, but new/different ideas are
>> not really very welcome and sometimes the arguments are like "it has
>> always been like that", "old users don't want that change".
>
>Really?  You've just went through a process of proposing and
>implementing a new feature -- did you feel your idea was "not really
>welcome"?
>
Actually fill-column-indicator was something that many people were using
(with the package) but it doesn't affect the global behavior at
all. Actually I think that most of the users won't even know that the
functionality will be there probably until emacs 30 when the
fill-column-indicator package just stop working or so. But also it was
an addition. Adding features to emacs is something easy from the mailing
list point of view. Actually we something is added that solves N
problems that nobody complained before (as fci) then automatically
appears some mails claiming that it must solve P other issues to no body
have complained either.

But when we mention (propose, suggest) to do any change in the defaults
or remove obsolete functionalities to promote new ones, or change old
features to add more modern ones... the mailing list starts becoming
crazy. Just give a look what happen when I just mention the C-c C-c
example. So at the end everything goes in and nothing goes out... that's
unmaintainable YKWIM.

>> The conservative attitude in emacs development group (apart from the
>> technical obstacles like the workflow and the paperwork and so on) gives
>> the idea of a closed environment (that actually it is from the
>> development point of view because we are like frozen in the past) where
>> only very experts are welcome (that's the vision people have from
>> outside) so very few melpa developers are really interested to face all
>> those issues to contribute.
>
>Is this your experience from implementing the fill-column indicator?
>If so, how do you explain that you, as a relative non-expert, were
>welcome in that case?
>
I put explicitly: that's the vision people have from outside.

Actually I was surprised that you were son kind, and patient with all
the emails and questions. But again fci does not affect anyone that does
not enable it, and actually the reddit post just received a couple of
comments. So actually it is a specific functionality that maybe
shouldn't have been added because there was not interest on it.

But any proposals that potentially change any default or break any
backward compatibility or even correct previous mistakes or update some
behavior are actually like a bomb in the mailing list.

Just give a look how long it took to enable delete-selection-mode or
transient-mark-mode since they were implemented and proposed the first
time. But also the new behaviors as they need to be optional, many
functions need to check a lot of conditional to work in all the
situations.

Just give a look how many good packages are in melpa, but not in elpa
in spite of they are totally free with no dependencies and their
maintainers are very active, and the communities too. (elpy, slime,
helm, company, swiper-avy-counsel...).

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 18:14:08 +0200
> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> >> We are far from becoming a toxic community, but new/different ideas are
> >> not really very welcome and sometimes the arguments are like "it has
> >> always been like that", "old users don't want that change".
> >
> >Really?  You've just went through a process of proposing and
> >implementing a new feature -- did you feel your idea was "not really
> >welcome"?
> >
> Actually fill-column-indicator was something that many people were using
> (with the package) but it doesn't affect the global behavior at
> all.

It's a reimplementation in core of a popular feature.  I think you are
wrong: I'm sure quite a few people will be happy to see it alive and
much faster than the Lisp implementation that is no longer maintained.

> But when we mention (propose, suggest) to do any change in the defaults
> or remove obsolete functionalities to promote new ones, or change old
> features to add more modern ones... the mailing list starts becoming
> crazy.

Emacs is an old program, with users who stay with it for 25 and more
years.  Changing old defaults or making other incompatible changes
definitely annoys at least some of those users, especially since quite
a few people don't track the development, and don't see the changes
until years later, sometimes even after skipping several releases
in-between.  This isn't theory, this is our (and my personal) actual
experience from watching Emacs development.  When someone comes up and
asks why we made a certain change in how Emacs worked for decades, we
should have a good reason, and if we don't, we shouldn't make the
change "just because we can".  That's the price of maintaining and
developing an old and stable program.

Personally, I wish people would invest much more time and efforts in
adding new features, and would stop futzing with existing features.
For starters, the former is much more useful for our users than the
latter.  Also, I see many times how a change in existing code to make
some minor improvement introduces bugs, which sometimes are more
significant than the "fixed" problem -- this is expected in a complex
stable program, and is a clear sign that changes of existing code long
since entered the area which engineers call "the limit cycle" --
oscillations that don't converge, i.e. the overall code quality is
quasi-constant.  IOW, we are wasting our own resources for little or
no gain.

> Just give a look how many good packages are in melpa, but not in elpa

If you are saying that those packages are in MELPA because they were
rejected to be included in Emacs or ELPA, then I'd be very surprised
to learn that this is true.  I think the vast majority of those
packages started up with MELPA and their developers never tried to
submit the packages to be included in Emacs.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

Hi Eli:

I agree a little bit too much here. But... 

>
>Emacs is an old program, with users who stay with it for 25 and more
>years.  Changing old defaults or making other incompatible changes
>definitely annoys at least some of those users, especially since quite
>a few people don't track the development, and don't see the changes
>until years later, sometimes even after skipping several releases
>in-between.  This isn't theory, this is our (and my personal) actual
>experience from watching Emacs development.  When someone comes up and
>asks why we made a certain change in how Emacs worked for decades, we
>should have a good reason, and if we don't, we shouldn't make the
>change "just because we can".  That's the price of maintaining and
>developing an old and stable program.
>
My point of view since the beginning of my first email ever in the
mailing list was based in 3 things:

1) Some design choices and limitations in the actual emacs were imposed
due to technology 40 years ago. (keyboard bindings, coding system,
screen resolutions, memory available and CPU, network latency, storage
capacity) but most of them are not issues anymore (at least not in the
emacs scales) so we are limiting the potential of emacs due to issues
that disappeared long time ago.

2) Many new features and functionalities (pure editing oriented) have
been introduced/proved/improved in other editors, and they have proven
to be useful (move line, initial configuration, associative bindings,
specific key combinations like in cua-mode, undo/redo and many
others).

An important part of those functionalities are can be implemented with
Elisp in one afternoon probably because they are just details and some
are already available as external packages, but the changes never arrive
because there are not available (practical) keybindings or because of
backward compatibility.

3) The development is not focused in the first thing that a user needs
when she opens emacs: provide the most comfortable and useful TEXT
EDITOR.

If emacs as TEXT EDITOR does not convince them (just the first try,
without config, without reading the manual/tutorial/documentation), then
they will not even try any other functionality. I think that you are one
of the few in this list who sees the importance if attracting new
users/developers. Unlike vim; emacs is not in the gnu/linux distros, it
is slower and bigger... so we need to offer some advantage on the first
try over the others to keep the users.

For example, many people use nano just because the basic actions are in
a button bar, so they don't get stocked and they can do the basic stuff
quick and fast, no installation no config needed.

Look at the spacemacs community and how many members are there wrapping
emacs functionalities to behave like in vim...

>Personally, I wish people would invest much more time and efforts in
>adding new features, and would stop futzing with existing features.
>For starters, the former is much more useful for our users than the
>latter.  Also, I see many times how a change in existing code to make
>some minor improvement introduces bugs, which sometimes are more
>significant than the "fixed" problem -- this is expected in a complex
>stable program, and is a clear sign that changes of existing code long
>since entered the area which engineers call "the limit cycle" --
>oscillations that don't converge, i.e. the overall code quality is
>quasi-constant.  IOW, we are wasting our own resources for little or
>no gain.
>
I would support that the functionalities go in elpa (I say elpa because
it won't need an initial configuration to be used, just list-packages
and install). Because there will be big chances that some other better
alternatives substitute it (ido -> helm -> avy; isearch -> swiper, etags
-> gtags, vc -> magit, ace -> avy) and looking tto the past... nothing
will be removed never ever from the core emacs code.

Also improve the modules API and support to create packages with C as
with elisp. But add the less possible functionalities in the core if
they are not directly editor related (basic ones) or general enough
(infrastructure / API).
>
>> Just give a look how many good packages are in melpa, but not in elpa
>
>If you are saying that those packages are in MELPA because they were
>rejected to be included in Emacs or ELPA, then I'd be very surprised
>to learn that this is true.  I think the vast majority of those
>packages started up with MELPA and their developers never tried to
>submit the packages to be included in Emacs.
>
No, I am saying that there is a reason why they made their work, and
they maintain it, but they don't spend time to put it in the official
repository.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Can't resist on commenting two points:

Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> writes:

> 3) The development is not focused in the first thing that a user needs
> when she opens emacs: provide the most comfortable and useful TEXT
> EDITOR.

For many people this is Notepad.

> If emacs as TEXT EDITOR does not convince them (just the first try,
> without config, without reading the manual/tutorial/documentation), then
> they will not even try any other functionality.

Indeed, Emacs has a non-negligible learning curve. Other editors do a
lot out of the box in a familiar way, but then you hit the wall. Emacs
is lacking in out-of-the-box functionality for modern programming
languages but otherwise, as a pure editor, it has no walls.

> I think that you are one
> of the few in this list who sees the importance if attracting new
> users/developers. Unlike vim; emacs is not in the gnu/linux distros, it
> is slower and bigger...

Are you sure? emacs -Q is instant here, vim grew quite a bit and,
anyway, who cares about a few dozen MB of difference when some of the
modern contenders use GB of *RAM* to work?

> so we need to offer some advantage on the first
> try over the others to keep the users.

Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you
experience them. That's a problem for people grown on a culture of
instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who
understand that gains require efforts. The really big problem is that
Emacs no longer compete on areas were it used to bring the largest
gains. Other editors largely surpassed Emacs' gains while requiring less
effort.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 10:50:45PM +0200, �scar Fuentes wrote:
>Can't resist on commenting two points:
>
>Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> writes:
>
>> 3) The development is not focused in the first thing that a user needs
>> when she opens emacs: provide the most comfortable and useful TEXT
>> EDITOR.
>
>For many people this is Notepad.
>
Or notepad++, or sublime text. 
>
>> If emacs as TEXT EDITOR does not convince them (just the first try,
>> without config, without reading the manual/tutorial/documentation), then
>> they will not even try any other functionality.
>
>Indeed, Emacs has a non-negligible learning curve. Other editors do a
>lot out of the box in a familiar way, but then you hit the wall. Emacs
>is lacking in out-of-the-box functionality for modern programming
>languages but otherwise, as a pure editor, it has no walls.
>
I agree 50% here. One thing is to use specific emacs functionalities
tricks, but another one is when you don't know how to start, because the
workflow is orthogonal to 90% of everything else, or you look for the
word copy and paste in the tutorial you only find kill and yank.

The first impression is actually the most important. And if a user don't
see any advantage the first 10 minutes, we lost him.
>
>> I think that you are one
>> of the few in this list who sees the importance if attracting new
>> users/developers. Unlike vim; emacs is not in the gnu/linux distros, it
>> is slower and bigger...
>
>Are you sure? emacs -Q is instant here, vim grew quite a bit and,

But with the -Q option you will have precisely all the defaults that
most of the people end changing because we don't do for them, without
extra plugins or extensions... so... when fast no advantages...

>anyway, who cares about a few dozen MB of difference when some of the
>modern contenders use GB of *RAM* to work?
>

There is actually a thread complaining about the emacs size in windows 

>
>> so we need to offer some advantage on the first
>> try over the others to keep the users.
>
>Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you
>experience them.

That has nothing to  do with the fact that the apparent ones could be
better and they are not because of inertia.

>That's a problem for people grown on a culture of
>instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who
>understand that gains require efforts.

Here agree, but the spectrum must be opened. We are not in 1990 anymore. 

>The really big problem is that
>Emacs no longer compete on areas were it used to bring the largest
>gains. Other editors largely surpassed Emacs' gains while requiring less
>effort.
>

This is exactly the key of all my point. We can't continue patching and
putting works around to this issue and we can't compete and win in all
the fields we cover, so at least we must be centered in one of them, the
most important one. Compete in the main goal, the main objective... And
as simple and logical for the users as possible. It looks illogical for
me that fill-columns-indicator or line-numbers came into emacs in
version 26.1 and 27.0 being so basic functionalities for any editor. Or
that we don't have at least a native-simple undo-redo (even if it needs
an extra line to be enables in the configuration file). Or that there
were so many discussions about enabling transient-mark-mode, or
delete-selection-mode.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> writes:

>>anyway, who cares about a few dozen MB of difference when some of the
>>modern contenders use GB of *RAM* to work?
>>
>
> There is actually a thread complaining about the emacs size in windows 

I was one of the complainers. The problem was that the zip file
contained debug info and a duplicated large executable, it had nothing
to do with the topic of this thread.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Ergus wrote:

> I agree 50% here. One thing is to use
> specific emacs functionalities tricks, but
> another one is when you don't know how to
> start, because the workflow is orthogonal to
> 90% of everything else, or you look for the
> word copy and paste in the tutorial you only
> find kill and yank.

Yes, we have some terminology of our own.
That's nothing to be ashamed of. Perhaps one
can explain it somewhere if this hasn't
happened already, like a "Feel confused by
Emacs terminology? Here is a crib for YOU" type
of document or part of the manual.

But obey tradition is all one can do. It is
what one wants to do. Try to change it - trust
me, it never works, anywhere.

> The first impression is actually the most
> important. And if a user don't see any
> advantage the first 10 minutes, we lost him.

You have again so low esteem of the user.
Why didn't WE quit after 10 minutes? Are we so
much better than everyone else?

> This is exactly the key of all my point.
> We can't continue patching and putting works
> around to this issue and we can't compete and
> win in all the fields we cover, so at least
> we must be centered in one of them, the most
> important one.

We want it ALL. That's the whole idea with
Emacs. We want programming, but also HTML/CSS,
LaTeX and Biblatex, the shell, the file system,
Emacs-w3m, man pages (a pager _and_ a mode to
edit groff), Gnus, ERC, Makefile, and
everything else people are using Emacs for
*every day*.

Emacs hackers all around the world are working
on all of this, and much, much more, every day.
You will never, ever be able to get them to
focus on "the most important" field, whatever
that is.

The diversity (plethora of activities) is the
_strength_, not the/a problem.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

RE: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Drew Adams]

> Yes, we have some terminology of our own.
> That's nothing to be ashamed of. Perhaps one
> can explain it somewhere if this hasn't
> happened already, like a "Feel confused by
> Emacs terminology? Here is a crib for YOU" type
> of document or part of the manual.


https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsJargon

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Glossary

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Glossary.html

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CategoryGlossary

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On May 17, 2019, at 5:50, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> 
>> so we need to offer some advantage on the first
>> try over the others to keep the users.
> 
> Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you
> experience them. That's a problem for people grown on a culture of
> instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who
> understand that gains require efforts.

I find that comment extremely condescending.

If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one can get started right away, then I'm all for it.

Considering the state of affairs, emacs seems first to appeal to people who want to give priority to free software, at the *cost* of ease of use.

Access to free software should never be the sole privilege of "users who understand that gains require efforts". Quite the opposite.

> The really big problem is that Emacs no longer compete on areas were it used to bring the largest gains. Other editors largely surpassed Emacs' gains while requiring less effort.

Eli earlier clearly identified a number of areas where emacs required huge and totally undue efforts to get the thing to work as expected in the 21st century. 


Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Jean-Christophe Helary <brandelune@gmail.com> writes:

>> On May 17, 2019, at 5:50, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>> 
>>> so we need to offer some advantage on the first
>>> try over the others to keep the users.
>> 
>> Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you
>> experience them. That's a problem for people grown on a culture of
>> instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who
>> understand that gains require efforts.
>
> I find that comment extremely condescending.
>
> If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one
> can get started right away, then I'm all for it.

"Instant gratification" means wanting things that require no learning
nor practicing nor understanding to be effectively used *right* *now*.

It would be doubleplusgood if Emacs could be one of those things but,
alas, it is obvious that text editors still are on the class of things
that require certain effort to be used effectively. Maybe Emacs requires
a bit more effort at the beginning, but it pays off... at least on text
manipulation tasks.

> Considering the state of affairs, emacs seems first to appeal to
> people who want to give priority to free software, at the *cost* of
> ease of use.

From 1985 to 2010 (give or take a few years and discounting Java and
some other modern language) Emacs was the best programmer's editor on
the "by hackers, for hackers" category. I suppose that most current
users come from that period.

> Access to free software should never be the sole privilege of "users
> who understand that gains require efforts". Quite the opposite.

Free Software is not a factor *today*, because most competitors are Free
Software too. Even Visual Studio Code is MIT-licensed.

OTOH, we have the vim phenomenon. An "old thing" which is way more
peculiar than Emacs, but with a growing user base. Those who point out
the dificulties of new users to copy and paste or to save text to a file
with Emacs, should ponder how vim has no problem requiring training for
doing the most basic thing a text editor is supposed to do.

Maybe, just maybe, having "kill & yank" instead "copy & paste" is not
the cause of Emacs' lack of appeal to the new generations.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On May 17, 2019, at 11:26, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> 
> Jean-Christophe Helary <brandelune@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one
>> can get started right away, then I'm all for it.
> 
> "Instant gratification" means wanting things that require no learning
> nor practicing nor understanding to be effectively used *right* *now*.

There is another word for that (and the earlier wheel metaphor may have escaped you), it is call "standardization".

> It would be doubleplusgood if Emacs could be one of those things but,
> alas, it is obvious that text editors still are on the class of things
> that require certain effort to be used effectively.

Please. Text editing is the most common task by at least an order of magnitude in the IT world. Even for kids.

> Maybe Emacs requires a bit more effort at the beginning, but it pays off... at least on text manipulation tasks.

Except that no. Check Eli's list of areas where emacs has fallen way behind. There are all related to advanced text manipulation.

> From 1985 to 2010 (give or take a few years and discounting Java and
> some other modern language) Emacs was the best programmer's editor on
> the "by hackers, for hackers" category. I suppose that most current
> users come from that period.

Because they don't fit your narrative ? I've started trying emacs in the mid 90's and the best pro editor I could find then that I could make sense of was BBEdit. I'm still using it when I have no time to uncover emacs' arbitrary idiosyncrasies. In fact, this discussion makes me realize that the only reason I use emacs is because it is a lisp environment and so I don't have to wait for developers to develop something for me and I can write a few lines of lisp myself if needed. Just like I write a few lines of AppleScript to solve trivial issues on my Mac instead of buying a $5 hack (but I could write AppleScript to automate BBEdit, except that it is less elegant than lisp).

>> Access to free software should never be the sole privilege of "users
>> who understand that gains require efforts". Quite the opposite.
> 
> Free Software is not a factor *today*, because most competitors are Free
> Software too. Even Visual Studio Code is MIT-licensed.

Ummm. So you agree that emacs sucks until you reach a given yet undefined enlightenment point and that free software is not a factor, so why not plainly declare that emacs is for a self proclaimed elite and then move on?

> OTOH, we have the vim phenomenon. An "old thing" which is way more
> peculiar than Emacs,

No. Unless "peculiar" means "consistent".

> but with a growing user base. Those who point out
> the dificulties of new users to copy and paste or to save text to a file
> with Emacs, should ponder how vim has no problem requiring training for
> doing the most basic thing a text editor is supposed to do.

"consistency"

> Maybe, just maybe, having "kill & yank" instead "copy & paste" is not
> the cause of Emacs' lack of appeal to the new generations.

If that's your conclusion, you must have missed a few mails in the thread. Eli clarified that a long time ago.

Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 01:05:12PM +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>
>
>> On May 17, 2019, at 11:26, �scar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>
>> Jean-Christophe Helary <brandelune@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one
>>> can get started right away, then I'm all for it.
>>
>> "Instant gratification" means wanting things that require no learning
>> nor practicing nor understanding to be effectively used *right* *now*.
>
>There is another word for that (and the earlier wheel metaphor may have escaped you), it is call "standardization".
>
Agree. 
>
>> It would be doubleplusgood if Emacs could be one of those things but,
>> alas, it is obvious that text editors still are on the class of things
>> that require certain effort to be used effectively.
>
>Please. Text editing is the most common task by at least an order of magnitude in the IT world. Even for kids.
>
Also agree 100%.
>
>> Maybe Emacs requires a bit more effort at the beginning, but it pays off... at least on text manipulation tasks.
>
>Except that no. Check Eli's list of areas where emacs has fallen way behind. There are all related to advanced text manipulation.
>
And standardization was mentioned by Stefan as important too.
>
>> From 1985 to 2010 (give or take a few years and discounting Java and
>> some other modern language) Emacs was the best programmer's editor on
>> the "by hackers, for hackers" category. I suppose that most current
>> users come from that period.
>
>Because they don't fit your narrative ? I've started trying emacs in the mid 90's and the best pro editor I could find then that I could make sense of was BBEdit. I'm still using it when I have no time to uncover emacs' arbitrary idiosyncrasies. In fact, this discussion makes me realize that the only reason I use emacs is because it is a lisp environment and so I don't have to wait for developers to develop something for me and I can write a few lines of lisp myself if needed. Just like I write a few lines of AppleScript to solve trivial issues on my Mac instead of buying a $5 hack (but I could write AppleScript to automate BBEdit, except that it is less elegant than lisp).
>
That is sadly a very common only reason people use Emacs.

But for new users, lisp looks like ancient Cyrillic. So I don't expect
that in the future it will be a reason many users chose emacs. And there
is also the fact that other editors offer somehow the same flexibility
with Java Script or Python, which are more familiar and popular these
days.
>
>>> Access to free software should never be the sole privilege of "users
>>> who understand that gains require efforts". Quite the opposite.
>>
>> Free Software is not a factor *today*, because most competitors are Free
>> Software too. Even Visual Studio Code is MIT-licensed.
>
>Ummm. So you agree that emacs sucks until you reach a given yet undefined enlightenment point and that free software is not a factor, so why not plainly declare that emacs is for a self proclaimed elite and then move on?
>
Better no comment this, but I agree that this is the feeling.
>
>> OTOH, we have the vim phenomenon. An "old thing" which is way more
>> peculiar than Emacs,
>
>No. Unless "peculiar" means "consistent".
>
It is actually a prove that being consistent can success, even when not
following the standards in the rest of the world. Also that programmers
prefer to use their logic (compose binding commands) instead of their
memory (memorize bindings) to interact with the editor.
>
>> but with a growing user base. Those who point out
>> the dificulties of new users to copy and paste or to save text to a file
>> with Emacs, should ponder how vim has no problem requiring training for
>> doing the most basic thing a text editor is supposed to do.
>
>"consistency"
>
Exactly
>
>> Maybe, just maybe, having "kill & yank" instead "copy & paste" is not
>> the cause of Emacs' lack of appeal to the new generations.
>
>If that's your conclusion, you must have missed a few mails in the thread. Eli clarified that a long time ago.
>
>Jean-Christophe Helary
>-----------------------------------------------
>http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune
>
>
>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

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On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 08:08:58AM +0200, Ergus wrote:
> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 01:05:12PM +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:

[...]

> >Please. Text editing is the most common task by at least an order of magnitude in the IT world. Even for kids.
> >
> Also agree 100%.

I disagree, at least by 87%

Text editing can mean just that. Notepad.

It can mean that I can syntax-highlight a program text and get
documentation on a function.

It can also mean that I can keep clickable links from one text file
to other files. On the same computer. On another computer accessible
via ssh. On my mail inbox.

It can mean that I can execute snippets of a bash, C, Perl program
in my text and have their results inserted somewhere else (invaluable
to document little programs).

But it can also mean that I can load a "mostly UTF-8" file and my
editor doesn't choke on it. More so: If I do a local change and
save, the other parts end up identical to the input.

Or that I can load a megabite-big mostly-binary file and it takes
a second or so (I'll venture a guess: if you try that with Eclipse,
lights go out -- hence the name ;-D.

If things look funny at that point, you do M-x hexl-mode, and get
another view at things.

This all is Emacs to me. I get *very nervous* when I hear excited
people muttering "don't worry: we'll refactor all that for you!".

Now: this was all a bit tongue-in-cheek, and progress never happens
if no one pushes; I guess Emacs wouldn't have come so far without
folks like you, but understand that some (me!) appreciate Emacs
for its careful (perhaps sometimes slow) approach at changing
things (another example in this department is the Linux kernel:
"you don't break user space" is nearly dogma there, and for a
reason).

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 08:08:58AM +0200, Ergus wrote:
>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 01:05:12PM +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> >Please. Text editing is the most common task by at least an order of
>> >magnitude in the IT world. Even for kids.
>> >
>> Also agree 100%.
>
> I disagree, at least by 87%

[snip]

Well said.

If somebody reads this thread knowing nothing about text editors, he
will likely think that Emacs is a mess of arbitrary hacks and the other
editors are models of consistency and elegance. Well, truth is that
those editors are half-assed hodgepodges of accumulated afterthoughts.

They allow you to do basic things in an ineffective way, but as they are
menu- and dialog-based many people are happy because those basic
features are easily discoverable and usable without training. Then, when
you need to do a search&replace that goes beyond the dumb thing that the
dialog offers, well, bad luck. (In my experience, the possibility that
better things could exist don't cross the mind of many users.)

Oh, about saying that Vim is consistent (while implying that Emacs is
not)... that's a good joke :-)

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 17:01, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> Then, when
> you need to do a search&replace that goes beyond the dumb thing that the
> dialog offers, well, bad luck.

What do you do to search&replace in all files across the project?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 17.05.2019 17:01, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
>> Then, when
>> you need to do a search&replace that goes beyond the dumb thing that the
>> dialog offers, well, bad luck.
>
> What do you do to search&replace in all files across the project?

What I do is invoke a searcher such as "ag" or vc-git-grep and then
wgrep to operate on the resulting buffer. This has the advantage that I
can simply do a replace-string or a more detailed manual edition on a
case-by-case basis with the associated file on a side window for
context, etc.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 17:50, Óscar Fuentes wrote:

>> On 17.05.2019 17:01, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
>>> Then, when
>>> you need to do a search&replace that goes beyond the dumb thing that the
>>> dialog offers, well, bad luck.
>>
>> What do you do to search&replace in all files across the project?
> 
> What I do is invoke a searcher such as "ag" or vc-git-grep and then
> wgrep to operate on the resulting buffer. This has the advantage that I
> can simply do a replace-string or a more detailed manual edition on a
> case-by-case basis with the associated file on a side window for
> context, etc.

A lot of the time, you don't need detailed editing for matches, though.

And the "dumb thing" the popular editors offer serves this case (as well 
as many others) actually very well and better than Emacs. So there's no 
reason to feel all smug and content, in my opinion.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 17.05.2019 17:50, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
>
>>> On 17.05.2019 17:01, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
>>>> Then, when
>>>> you need to do a search&replace that goes beyond the dumb thing that the
>>>> dialog offers, well, bad luck.
>>>
>>> What do you do to search&replace in all files across the project?
>>
>> What I do is invoke a searcher such as "ag" or vc-git-grep and then
>> wgrep to operate on the resulting buffer. This has the advantage that I
>> can simply do a replace-string or a more detailed manual edition on a
>> case-by-case basis with the associated file on a side window for
>> context, etc.
>
> A lot of the time, you don't need detailed editing for matches, though.
>
> And the "dumb thing" the popular editors offer serves this case (as
> well as many others) actually very well and better than Emacs. So
> there's no reason to feel all smug and content, in my opinion.

If those other editors do the simple thing better than Emacs and you
decided that *I* don't need the not-so-simple thing a lot of the time...
well, it is difficult to keep arguing, isn't it?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 22:23, Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> If those other editors do the simple thing better than Emacs and you
> decided that *I* don't need the not-so-simple thing a lot of the time...
> well, it is difficult to keep arguing, isn't it?

I'm saying there's no need to feel smug, given the current situation. We 
should be able to do both the simple thing, and not-so-simple thing, 
better. Or at least, reasonably well.

And if we do the simple thing well, that's one less reason for anybody 
new to Emacs to shrug and give up.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

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On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 05:16:59PM +0300, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> On 17.05.2019 17:01, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> >Then, when
> >you need to do a search&replace that goes beyond the dumb thing that the
> >dialog offers, well, bad luck.
> 
> What do you do to search&replace in all files across the project?

  http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/find_replace_inter.html

Enjoy.

One of the things Emacs does very well is to integrate this
seemingly disparate mess pretty seamlessly, if you want.

E.g. Org-mode + Tramp: links pointing to files accessible
by some protocol (e.g. ssh or ftp or...). And so on.

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

>> What do you do to search&replace in all files across the project?
>
>   http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/find_replace_inter.html
>
> Enjoy.

I guess that Dmitry knows the xref method fairly well :-)

(Doex

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:

> I guess that Dmitry knows the xref method fairly well :-)
>
> (Doex

Hit Send too fast. I was going to ask if it is possible to freely edit
an *xref* buffer and then apply the changes just like wgrep does. The
existence of xref-query-replace-in-results seems to indicate that the
answer is negative...

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 20:05, Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> Hit Send too fast. I was going to ask if it is possible to freely edit
> an *xref* buffer and then apply the changes just like wgrep does.

Unfortunately, no. But it should be possible to implement in the future.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 19:50, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> I guess that Dmitry knows the xref method fairly well:-)

The one I was thinking of myself is project-find-regexp and then 
pressing 'r'. But xref is a fairly recent development.

And wgrep not only in Emacs core, it's not even in ELPA. Which seems 
unfortunate for such basic functionality.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 19:37, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> One of the things Emacs does very well is to integrate this
> seemingly disparate mess pretty seamlessly, if you want.

What if you just want to replace 'foo' with 'bar'? Don't you think it 
requires too many steps?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?
Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> (In my experience, the possibility that
> better things could exist don't cross the
> mind of many users.)

But finding things in Emacs isn't always
so easy. Often I get a feeling, either this
exists already or how come in hell I'm the first
person to think of such a basic thing?

I know about the on-line help (on-line = not on
paper :)), about `info', about `apropos' with
`apropos-command' and `apropos-value' and
all that. Still, when you are in the workflow,
and you don't want to leave it to find the real
deal (which you think, but cannot _know_
already exists) you just write Elisp yourself.

Here are two examples. This one I wrote as
a pretty novice Lisper:

(require 'dired)
(defun su-edit ()
  "Edit the current buffer file as superuser."
  (interactive)
  (let*((window-start (window-start))
        (point        (point))
        (mark         (when mark-active (mark)))
        (path         (or dired-directory
                          (file-truename (buffer-file-name)) ))
        (sudo-path    (sudo-root-path path)) )
    (find-alternate-file sudo-path)
    (when mark (set-mark mark))
    (goto-char point)
    (when dired-directory (dired-previous-line 1))
    (set-window-start nil window-start) ; the selected WINDOW
    )) ; [1]

The `sudo-root-path path' is here: [2]

This OTOH I wrote just this week or so:

(defun case-sensitive-regexp-search-and-replace (regexp to-string &optional start stop)
  (interactive
   `(,(read-from-minibuffer "regexp: ")
     ,(read-from-minibuffer "replace: ")
     ,@(if (use-region-p) (list (region-beginning) (region-end))
         (list (point-min) (point-max))) ))
  (save-excursion
    (let ((beg (or start (point-min)))
          (end (or stop  (point-max))) )
      (goto-char beg)
      (let ((case-fold-search nil))
        (while (re-search-forward regexp end t)
          (replace-match to-string t) )))))
(defalias 'cs-replace #'case-sensitive-regexp-search-and-replace) ; [3]

In both "cases" ... :) ... I'm pretty sure
there are canonical ways to do both because
they would seem so fundamental.

As for the quality of the code and possible
bugs, actually I'm more confident with
"su-edit" because I used that so many times,
despite the code doesn't really look good,
than with "cs-replace", having used that only
a few couple of times thus far. But as always,
suggestions/corrections are welcome, even when
the code serves to illustrate a detached
phenomena...


[1] line 64 @ https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/edit.el
[2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/sudo-user-path.el
[3] line 8, same URL as in [1]

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2019-05-30 14:09]:
> (require 'dired)
> (defun su-edit ()
>   "Edit the current buffer file as superuser."
>   (interactive)
>   (let*((window-start (window-start))
>         (point        (point))
>         (mark         (when mark-active (mark)))
>         (path         (or dired-directory
>                           (file-truename (buffer-file-name)) ))
>         (sudo-path    (sudo-root-path path)) )
>     (find-alternate-file sudo-path)
>     (when mark (set-mark mark))
>     (goto-char point)
>     (when dired-directory (dired-previous-line 1))
>     (set-window-start nil window-start) ; the selected WINDOW
>     )) ; [1]

let*: Symbol’s function definition is void: sudo-root-path

Then I found out that tramp is offering it with C-x C-f /sudo://etc/asound.conf 

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Ergus wrote:

> But for new users, lisp looks like ancient
> Cyrillic.

Again this disrespect for the new user. LISP is
from 1958, CL is from 1984 and Elisp is
from 1985. [1]

Anyone here wants to raise their hand "I was
there 1958, and LISP felt just right with the
times!" I was there in 1984 and 1985, but my
interests then weren't programming.

I discovered Lisp much later and it didn't feel
like ancient Cyrillic, or paleo-Etruscan for
that matter. It felt interesting, awesome, and
practical, and that's why I went with it (to
a large extent). Despite never getting rich or
famous, nor a Lisp expert, I don't regret it
for a microsecond.

To paraphrase tomás, that is

$ echo $(( 1 * 10**(-6) )) seconds
9.9999999999999995e-07 seconds

So it is pretty clear for these computations
that you again underestimate people, big time.
LISP (or Lisp) wasn't on everyone's lips,
lispers or not, when I found it!

When I found it thru Emacs, I had never heard
of it! Yet I liked it instantly! I wasn't in
the least intimidated, on the contrary,
I was attracted, just like light is to
a celestial body!

Again, why can't this happen again?
Young people today are smarter and more
dedicated than I was - well, perhaps not, now
that I think about it :) Well, smarter and more
dedicated in a different way, at least.

But in any case, they are smart and dedicated
enough to not be scared away by the ultimate
terror, ancient Lisp!

It doesn't work like that. Young people are
*brave*!

> It is actually a prove that being consistent
> can success, even when not following the
> standards in the rest of the world.

Consistency for large projects are virtually
impossible. And Emacs is not large, it is
enormous. I can't keep my one room bike repair
shop "consistent" for long, and it's just me
and ~10 other guys being active there!
Just forget about it. Do the best you can, yes,
then live with it. Don't be all Asperger about
it. It is a dead end.

Part of success is being organized, yes, like
Amundsen on the pole. But a much bigger part is
being prepared, dedicated, brave, knowledgeable,
and confident. Having your equipment in good
order gives you some advantage, and some
confidence for that matter, but it ain't enough
and never will be. You don't reach the pole by
counting <handlovremmar> (no idea what they are
called in English) - you don't reach to pole by
counting <handlovremmar> and putting them
i orders of size, weight and color. You get to
the pole by trying them on and experiencing
first hand if they are too long, too short,
needs to be of a different material, or are
just right. And if some other guys has it the
other way around, and even has his own name for
them, so be it. Learn his name as well and
let's be off already.


[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/COMP-HIST

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Jean-Christophe Helary <brandelune@gmail.com> writes:

>> On May 17, 2019, at 11:26, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>> 
>> Jean-Christophe Helary <brandelune@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one
>>> can get started right away, then I'm all for it.
>> 
>> "Instant gratification" means wanting things that require no learning
>> nor practicing nor understanding to be effectively used *right* *now*.
>
> There is another word for that (and the earlier wheel metaphor may
> have escaped you), it is call "standardization".

Where is that standard?

>> It would be doubleplusgood if Emacs could be one of those things but,
>> alas, it is obvious that text editors still are on the class of things
>> that require certain effort to be used effectively.
>
> Please. Text editing is the most common task by at least an order of
> magnitude in the IT world.

So what?

> Even for kids.

Well, I understand now. Your standard ends in CUA.

It is obvious that you and me have vast differences on what we expect
from a text editor. I doubt that we can have a productive discussion, so
I'll stop here.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:

> Because they don't fit your narrative ?
> I've started trying emacs in the mid 90's and
> the best pro editor I could find then that
> I could make sense of was BBEdit. I'm still
> using it when I have no time to uncover
> emacs' arbitrary idiosyncrasies.

Oh, yeah? Like when?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 04:26:26AM +0200, �scar Fuentes wrote:
>Jean-Christophe Helary <brandelune@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> On May 17, 2019, at 5:50, �scar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>
>>>> so we need to offer some advantage on the first
>>>> try over the others to keep the users.
>>>
>>> Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you
>>> experience them. That's a problem for people grown on a culture of
>>> instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who
>>> understand that gains require efforts.
>>
>> I find that comment extremely condescending.
>>
>> If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one
>> can get started right away, then I'm all for it.
>
>"Instant gratification" means wanting things that require no learning
>nor practicing nor understanding to be effectively used *right* *now*.
>

The vim phenomenon is the prove that our problem is not "Instant
gratification". Vim made many changes in the interface to make all the
commands more coherent or shorter. And removed the errors existing in vi
even when some people used them as features. There is an interesting
article about that.

Of course there were complains. There are always complains.

>It would be doubleplusgood if Emacs could be one of those things but,
>alas, it is obvious that text editors still are on the class of things
>that require certain effort to be used effectively. Maybe Emacs requires
>a bit more effort at the beginning, but it pays off... at least on text
>manipulation tasks.
>
The problem comes when people needs to configure everything because the
defaults are terrible, they rely on some packages and then they can't use
another machine (because emacs is not there, or does not have their
configuration). So the effort invested and the training, confines them
and worth nothing outside their machine.
>
>> Considering the state of affairs, emacs seems first to appeal to
>> people who want to give priority to free software, at the *cost* of
>> ease of use.
>
>From 1985 to 2010 (give or take a few years and discounting Java and
>some other modern language) Emacs was the best programmer's editor on
>the "by hackers, for hackers" category. I suppose that most current
>users come from that period.
>
Agree. But future is coming.
>
>> Access to free software should never be the sole privilege of "users
>> who understand that gains require efforts". Quite the opposite.
>
>Free Software is not a factor *today*, because most competitors are Free
>Software too. Even Visual Studio Code is MIT-licensed.
>
I will no go in the free vs open source here. But no, most of the
editors are open source, not free. 
>
>OTOH, we have the vim phenomenon. An "old thing" which is way more
>peculiar than Emacs, but with a growing user base. Those who point out
>the dificulties of new users to copy and paste or to save text to a file
>with Emacs, should ponder how vim has no problem requiring training for
>doing the most basic thing a text editor is supposed to do.
>
Vim is actually my starting point. It is the only editor that worth to
compare with emacs.

It is easy to explain and I have refereed to this in many maaaaany other
emails:

1) vim is there in all the GNU/Linux distros.

2) It works the same in all the systems, in all the languages, even the
default color themes are better by default.

3) The keybinds (apart from the insert-escape) are easier, more
ergonomic and logically composable.

4) It is extremely responsive and fast to open-close workflows. No
lagging, or delays, no server configuration needed.

5) The important editing commands are usually only 1 key far. We can
make a simple comparison:

Move forward: C-n -> j
Move forward 3 lines: M-3 C-n -> 3j (look sparsity in the keyboard)
Copy 3 lines and return to point position:
C-SPC C-SPC C-a C-SPC M-3 M-w C-u C-SPC C-u C-SPC -> 3yy

Plus:
hjkl are way more ergonomic than what we have (you can type them
with one hand, while the other types the prefix, but they are also
together, so going 3 lines up 5 letters left is way faster and easier) 

Plus:
In vim the user can enter complete lines/commands/functions:

:e file
:8,10 s/search/replace/g

which is more intuitive and familiar for terminal users. And those
commands are also composable.

Plus:
There are no conflicts with the modified inputs and the terminals, so
they have more keybindings to use.

6) They do one thing and do it well. Editing functionalities have
priority (for example column indicator or line numbers were added very
long time ago.) 

7) I understand it is also much simpler than emacs in functionalities,
but that is a benefit from the maintenance and update point of
view. They don't need to maintain an interpreter, their own language, a
graphical and a terminal interface, different modes for every
programming language, wrapper functions for terminal commands like grep
(or version control functionalities) a browser, file manager, a server
interface and client, a network infrastructure... This also means that
the number of programmers and expert fields they need to maintain all
the code is also smaller.

Let me say:

I am NOT making apology of vim, I am just pointing how are they doing
and why they success more with a "worst product" because it is not a
mystery.

I should also highlight that emacs can do (almost) all this: (spacemacs,
evil-mode) or in its own way: (ergoemacs, god-mode, hydra) but we still
enforce the old way. And we don't promote enough some packages and
functionalities that are not imported, but created exclusively for emacs
and could make the difference (like avy).

>
>Maybe, just maybe, having "kill & yank" instead "copy & paste" is not
>the cause of Emacs' lack of appeal to the new generations.
>

It is one more.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 07:52:02 +0200
> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> The problem comes when people needs to configure everything because the
> defaults are terrible

Please don't exaggerate like that, it makes the discussion more
emotional and less useful.  Our defaults are not "terrible" by any
account, certainly not when expressed in such a general form.

> Vim [...] is the only editor that worth to compare with emacs.

I think you are wrong here.  There are VSCode, Atom, and a few others.

> It is easy to explain and I have refereed to this in many maaaaany other
> emails:
> 
> 1) vim is there in all the GNU/Linux distros.

Not much we can do about that.  Feel free to lobby distros to include
Emacs.  IMO, if something is related to 40-year old decision, it is
this one.

> 2) It works the same in all the systems, in all the languages, even the
> default color themes are better by default.

Emacs also works the same on all systems.  As for "better default
colors", that debatable at best.  It's a matter of taste, and
psychologically we tend to favor our first experience: old habits die
hard.

> 3) The keybinds (apart from the insert-escape) are easier, more
> ergonomic and logically composable.
> 
> 4) It is extremely responsive and fast to open-close workflows. No
> lagging, or delays, no server configuration needed.
> 
> 5) The important editing commands are usually only 1 key far. We can
> make a simple comparison:
> 
> Move forward: C-n -> j
> Move forward 3 lines: M-3 C-n -> 3j (look sparsity in the keyboard)
> Copy 3 lines and return to point position:
> C-SPC C-SPC C-a C-SPC M-3 M-w C-u C-SPC C-u C-SPC -> 3yy
> 
> Plus:
> hjkl are way more ergonomic than what we have (you can type them
> with one hand, while the other types the prefix, but they are also
> together, so going 3 lines up 5 letters left is way faster and easier) 

If you want to argue that Emacs should be a dual-mode editor like the
vi family, and that this is your "future", then we will never agree.
One of the revolutions that Emacs brought to text editing was its lack
of modality, where you just type text to have it inserted.  Dual-mode
editors are a thing of the past in my eyes, a remnant from the old
days when editors didn't have the real-time display, where you needed
to have commands like "move N lines from the current one, then delete
M lines" etc.  Please don't even get me (and others) started on this
"feature".

> Plus:
> In vim the user can enter complete lines/commands/functions:
> 
> :e file
> :8,10 s/search/replace/g

How is this different from Emacs's "C-x C-f" or M-% in the selected
region?  Are you saying that it's easier to remember ":e" than "C-x
C-f"??

And you contradict yourself here: simple text editors all provide
operations on the selected portion of text.  Emacs does that, while
vim tells the users to remember the cryptic "N,M s/foo/bar/g" stuff
that goes back to the 50-year old ed(1) and sed(1) editors!

> which is more intuitive and familiar for terminal users.

"terminal users"? who are those?  what's a "terminal"?  Are we really
going to target 70-year old curmudgeons that still work on a
'terminal"?  why? because vim does that?

Forgive me, but this is all backwards!  Modern users want first and
foremost GUI editors, because you can do in GUI display stuff that is
unimaginable for text-mode environments.

> Plus:
> There are no conflicts with the modified inputs and the terminals, so
> they have more keybindings to use.

Yesh, and you pay by having two modes.  No, thanks.

> 6) They do one thing and do it well. Editing functionalities have
> priority (for example column indicator or line numbers were added very
> long time ago.) 

Line numbers are a _must_ in vim, because so many commands _require_
you to name the line numbers.  See your example above.  That Emacs
originally didn't have line numbers is because you don't actually
_need_ them so much.

> 7) I understand it is also much simpler than emacs in functionalities,
> but that is a benefit from the maintenance and update point of
> view. They don't need to maintain an interpreter, their own language, a
> graphical and a terminal interface, different modes for every
> programming language, wrapper functions for terminal commands like grep
> (or version control functionalities) a browser, file manager, a server
> interface and client, a network infrastructure... This also means that
> the number of programmers and expert fields they need to maintain all
> the code is also smaller.

This also means that you can never have a MUA in vim, or an IDE, or a
debugger front-end or anything even remotely similar to Org.  Let the
people who want simplicity at a price of a limited editor use vim.  It
is not them that I think we should attract.

> I am NOT making apology of vim, I am just pointing how are they doing
> and why they success more with a "worst product" because it is not a
> mystery.

We don't _want_ success of the vim type.  That's the wrong type of
success for Emacs.

> >Maybe, just maybe, having "kill & yank" instead "copy & paste" is not
> >the cause of Emacs' lack of appeal to the new generations.
> >
> 
> It is one more.

Excuse me, but this is nonsense.  Our menu and tool bar say copy/paste
for at least 20 years, as do the manuals.  I wonder when people will
stop beating this dead horse.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 12:01:54PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 07:52:02 +0200
>> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>>
>> The problem comes when people needs to configure everything because the
>> defaults are terrible
>
>Please don't exaggerate like that, it makes the discussion more
>emotional and less useful.  Our defaults are not "terrible" by any
>account, certainly not when expressed in such a general form.
>
Sorry then. But I am getting tired.
>
>> Vim [...] is the only editor that worth to compare with emacs.
>
>I think you are wrong here.  There are VSCode, Atom, and a few others.
>
Yes, but they are very different and limited in many sense. VSCode
extensibility is very limited. And they don't work in terminal, which is
my base starting point (because some limitations comes from there)
>
>> It is easy to explain and I have refereed to this in many maaaaany other
>> emails:
>>
>> 1) vim is there in all the GNU/Linux distros.
>
>Not much we can do about that.  Feel free to lobby distros to include
>Emacs.  IMO, if something is related to 40-year old decision, it is
>this one.
>
I did actually some time ago and some distributions just replied that
the community was too small and the package too big compared to vim, but
it could be easily installed from repositories bla bla bla.
>
>> 2) It works the same in all the systems, in all the languages, even the
>> default color themes are better by default.
>
>Emacs also works the same on all systems.  As for "better default
>colors", that debatable at best.  It's a matter of taste, and
>psychologically we tend to favor our first experience: old habits die
>hard.
>
The gui could look much modern with a couple of lines in the
configuration. But the first impression now is like a program in windows
95.

This is something that an emacs user changes in 10 minutes probably, but
for a new user is not trivial.

The gui interface is not important at all for me. This is one of the
very simple changes that could take 5 minutes to do and 3 months arguing
in the mailing list.
>
>> 3) The keybinds (apart from the insert-escape) are easier, more
>> ergonomic and logically composable.
>>
>> 4) It is extremely responsive and fast to open-close workflows. No
>> lagging, or delays, no server configuration needed.
>>
>> 5) The important editing commands are usually only 1 key far. We can
>> make a simple comparison:
>>
>> Move forward: C-n -> j
>> Move forward 3 lines: M-3 C-n -> 3j (look sparsity in the keyboard)
>> Copy 3 lines and return to point position:
>> C-SPC C-SPC C-a C-SPC M-3 M-w C-u C-SPC C-u C-SPC -> 3yy
>>
>> Plus:
>> hjkl are way more ergonomic than what we have (you can type them
>> with one hand, while the other types the prefix, but they are also
>> together, so going 3 lines up 5 letters left is way faster and easier)
>
>If you want to argue that Emacs should be a dual-mode editor like the
>vi family, and that this is your "future", then we will never agree.
>One of the revolutions that Emacs brought to text editing was its lack
>of modality, where you just type text to have it inserted.  Dual-mode
>editors are a thing of the past in my eyes, a remnant from the old
>days when editors didn't have the real-time display, where you needed
>to have commands like "move N lines from the current one, then delete
>M lines" etc.  Please don't even get me (and others) started on this
>"feature".
>
I don't use vim due to the modes. I literally hate the modes. But on the
other hand npbf are too sparse and between some keys that modify the
buffer when Ctrl is hold (ojd).

My real proposes (if any, which is not actually) would be to change
those basic ones with jkli, or asdw (it is just an example). Delete
redundant bindings like ESC = Alt for prefixes, M-4 = C-u, or the
numerical prefixes with alt and C and keep only one. Join similar
"opposite" commands like C-o and C-j, or comment uncomment to exploit
negative prefix for one of them (so we free a bind and standardize
somehow, except C-d and DEL). Reserve one prefix only for user specific
functions and recommend the packages not to use that. Enable some extra
verbose features when there is not any configuration file and not using
-Q (because it is a hint that probably it is a new user or an old user
in a foreign machine) (I mean which-key for example)

>> Plus:
>> In vim the user can enter complete lines/commands/functions:
>>
>> :e file
>> :8,10 s/search/replace/g
>
>How is this different from Emacs's "C-x C-f" or M-% in the selected
>region?  Are you saying that it's easier to remember ":e" than "C-x
>C-f"??
>
Once we entered C-x C-f (which is actually longer and with no
associative relation) it is not possible to change mind, go back and do
the equivalent to C-x C-v or C-x 4 f (without C-g reenter the new bind
and reenter the file). With a ":command argument" it is more familiar
for terminal users and is possible to add modifiers to the commands (to
easy standarization and reduce memorized bindings)... Add finally an undo
and redo, even if it is optional. but have some binding for both.
>
>And you contradict yourself here: simple text editors all provide
>operations on the selected portion of text.  Emacs does that, while
>vim tells the users to remember the cryptic "N,M s/foo/bar/g" stuff
>that goes back to the 50-year old ed(1) and sed(1) editors!
>
I don't complain about our approach in replace (with transient-mark-mode
of course, and there are suggestions there) it was just an example of a
very complex command that vim users love for some reason but it is
composed by many pieces that work independently with logic, no memory.
>
>> which is more intuitive and familiar for terminal users.
>
>"terminal users"? who are those?  what's a "terminal"?  Are we really
>going to target 70-year old curmudgeons that still work on a
>'terminal"?  why? because vim does that?
>
>Forgive me, but this is all backwards!  Modern users want first and
>foremost GUI editors, because you can do in GUI display stuff that is
>unimaginable for text-mode environments.
>
Actually all vim users are terminal users, so they are not quite a few
these days, specially on GNU/Linux. Server management, remote access,
embedded systems, and core hardware pieces with Linux kernels (routers)
raspberry pi and single board computers, High performance clusters don't
have GUI. The terminal emulators are still the most popular and
important part for GNU/Linux users. And those systems actually are more
used in servers than desktop. And looks like it will be like that for a
long time.

The gui support is a good move, but most of our potential (short-medium
time) users are terminal dependents.

Packages like i3wm, bash, zsh and low level GNU/Linux distributions
(like arch) are very popular.
>
>> Plus:
>> There are no conflicts with the modified inputs and the terminals, so
>> they have more keybindings to use.
>
>Yesh, and you pay by having two modes.  No, thanks.
>
I know, I am just pointing out one of their advantages over our design
limitations. I really hate the modes.
>
>> 6) They do one thing and do it well. Editing functionalities have
>> priority (for example column indicator or line numbers were added very
>> long time ago.)
>
>Line numbers are a _must_ in vim, because so many commands _require_
>you to name the line numbers.  See your example above.  That Emacs
>originally didn't have line numbers is because you don't actually
>_need_ them so much.
>
For programming it is a must, actually. Compilation errors and warnings
are much simple to find that way. Also, going to a line is the kind of
command that must have only a 2 keys binding by default (and probably a
behavior like goto-line-preview by default)
>
>> 7) I understand it is also much simpler than emacs in functionalities,
>> but that is a benefit from the maintenance and update point of
>> view. They don't need to maintain an interpreter, their own language, a
>> graphical and a terminal interface, different modes for every
>> programming language, wrapper functions for terminal commands like grep
>> (or version control functionalities) a browser, file manager, a server
>> interface and client, a network infrastructure... This also means that
>> the number of programmers and expert fields they need to maintain all
>> the code is also smaller.
>
>This also means that you can never have a MUA in vim, or an IDE, or a
>debugger front-end or anything even remotely similar to Org.  Let the
>people who want simplicity at a price of a limited editor use vim.  It
>is not them that I think we should attract.
>
I mention this because there is too much code to maintain and of course
we can't do the best in all those fields. There are external packages
(compilers, text web browsers) that at some point we will need to trust
them and rely functionalities on them. And other functionalities could
be unified (like grep, rgrep and so on to a single general function to
call all shell commands and produce the same outputs (we already have
that, but still specialize to produce occur like buffers))
>
>> I am NOT making apology of vim, I am just pointing how are they doing
>> and why they success more with a "worst product" because it is not a
>> mystery.
>
>We don't _want_ success of the vim type.  That's the wrong type of
>success for Emacs.
>
Why?
>
>> >Maybe, just maybe, having "kill & yank" instead "copy & paste" is not
>> >the cause of Emacs' lack of appeal to the new generations.
>> >
>>
>> It is one more.
>
>Excuse me, but this is nonsense.  Our menu and tool bar say copy/paste
>for at least 20 years, as do the manuals.  I wonder when people will
>stop beating this dead horse.
>
In reply to the other email... I proposed to do a survey and
functionalities interest question a long time ago in the developers
mailing list. I even proposed some initial questions to do. Sent the
link of some pages to publish that and finally nobody cared.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 14:35:51 +0200
> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> >> Vim [...] is the only editor that worth to compare with emacs.
> >
> >I think you are wrong here.  There are VSCode, Atom, and a few others.
> >
> Yes, but they are very different and limited in many sense. VSCode
> extensibility is very limited. And they don't work in terminal, which is
> my base starting point (because some limitations comes from there)

We want to do all these editors do, and also all the rest.  That's one
of the Emacs's sale points.

Currently, we have many more features, but in the IDE department we
lag after those "limited" alternatives.  We need to catch up.

> >> 1) vim is there in all the GNU/Linux distros.
> >
> >Not much we can do about that.  Feel free to lobby distros to include
> >Emacs.  IMO, if something is related to 40-year old decision, it is
> >this one.
> >
> I did actually some time ago and some distributions just replied that
> the community was too small and the package too big compared to vim, but
> it could be easily installed from repositories bla bla bla.

Is an Emacs installation really significantly larger than a Vim
installation nowadays?

> The gui could look much modern with a couple of lines in the
> configuration. But the first impression now is like a program in windows
> 95.

AFAIK, the GUI is modeled after GTK applications.

But feel free to suggest how to "modernize" it (on emacs-devel,
preferably), I don't think we had such a discussion in a long while.

> This is something that an emacs user changes in 10 minutes probably, but
> for a new user is not trivial.

If many users change the GUI appearance, then we should see if those
changes should be made by default.  Hard to say without knowing the
details.  FWIW, most posts about "my favorite config" simply turn off
most GUI features, and we cannot learn much from those.

> The gui interface is not important at all for me. This is one of the
> very simple changes that could take 5 minutes to do and 3 months arguing
> in the mailing list.

Then I guess you are in a minority.  Certainly among newcomers.

> >If you want to argue that Emacs should be a dual-mode editor like the
> >vi family, and that this is your "future", then we will never agree.
> >One of the revolutions that Emacs brought to text editing was its lack
> >of modality, where you just type text to have it inserted.  Dual-mode
> >editors are a thing of the past in my eyes, a remnant from the old
> >days when editors didn't have the real-time display, where you needed
> >to have commands like "move N lines from the current one, then delete
> >M lines" etc.  Please don't even get me (and others) started on this
> >"feature".
> >
> I don't use vim due to the modes. I literally hate the modes. But on the
> other hand npbf are too sparse and between some keys that modify the
> buffer when Ctrl is hold (ojd).

In that case, I don't even understand why you brought that up.  Not
having modes comes with a price, and IMO it is not too high.  Once we
all are on the same page about this basic fact, we should stop wasting
time discussing it.  Arguing for a change in basic bindings like C-f,
"C-x C-f", etc. is a non-starter, the community will never agree to
something like that.

> My real proposes (if any, which is not actually) would be to change
> those basic ones with jkli, or asdw (it is just an example).

This is not going to fly, no way.

> Delete redundant bindings like ESC = Alt for prefixes, M-4 = C-u, or
> the numerical prefixes with alt and C and keep only one.

This will cause more keystrokes in some cases.  E.g., if the binding
is Meta-something, the M-digit binding is very handy, and the same
with commands that are Control-something.

> Join similar "opposite" commands like C-o and C-j, or comment
> uncomment to exploit negative prefix for one of them

This is not ergonomic for frequent commands (witness how you exempt
DEL from this scheme), because typing the prefix too frequently is
painful.

Anyway, which other editor does that?  They all have different
commands to DO and to un-DO.

> Reserve one prefix only for user specific functions and recommend
> the packages not to use that.

That's C-c, which we already have.

> Enable some extra verbose features when there is not any
> configuration file and not using -Q (because it is a hint that
> probably it is a new user or an old user in a foreign machine) (I
> mean which-key for example)

What is which-key.

The idea to be more verbose is an interesting one, but I don't yet see
what kind of implementation do you envision.  For starters, where will
the extra text come from, and where and under what conditions will it
be displayed?

> Actually all vim users are terminal users

Then I don't think we should be too interested in those, when we
describe modernization of Emacs.

> so they are not quite a few these days, specially on
> GNU/Linux. Server management, remote access, embedded systems, and
> core hardware pieces with Linux kernels (routers) raspberry pi and
> single board computers, High performance clusters don't have
> GUI. The terminal emulators are still the most popular and important
> part for GNU/Linux users. And those systems actually are more used
> in servers than desktop. And looks like it will be like that for a
> long time.

Emacs does support text-mode terminals, and it does that very well.
But it makes no sense to build the UI on the assumption that most of
our users work on a TTY.  In particular, if we ever catch up on the
IDE front, because text-mode IDEs cannot have many important features
considered a must-have for an IDE.

> The gui support is a good move, but most of our potential (short-medium
> time) users are terminal dependents.

That should be backed up by some statistics.  I don't think it's true,
but even if it is, it just is one result of us lagging behind in the
IDE department.

> >Line numbers are a _must_ in vim, because so many commands _require_
> >you to name the line numbers.  See your example above.  That Emacs
> >originally didn't have line numbers is because you don't actually
> >_need_ them so much.
> >
> For programming it is a must, actually.

I disagree.

> Compilation errors and warnings are much simple to find that way.

Our compilation-related features make that entirely unneeded.

> Also, going to a line is the kind of command that must have only a 2
> keys binding by default (and probably a behavior like
> goto-line-preview by default)

Why would one need to go to a line by its number, when you have
fast-movement commands like "C-u C-u C-n"?

> >This also means that you can never have a MUA in vim, or an IDE, or a
> >debugger front-end or anything even remotely similar to Org.  Let the
> >people who want simplicity at a price of a limited editor use vim.  It
> >is not them that I think we should attract.
> >
> I mention this because there is too much code to maintain and of course
> we can't do the best in all those fields.

That's the price, yes.  But removing valuable features to make the
maintenance easier is IMO the wrong way of solving this problem.

> >We don't _want_ success of the vim type.  That's the wrong type of
> >success for Emacs.
> >
> Why?

Because we are a different kind of beast, see above.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 16:13, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> We want to do all these editors do, and also all the rest.  That's one
> of the Emacs's sale points.
> 
> Currently, we have many more features, but in the IDE department we
> lag after those "limited" alternatives.  We need to catch up.

We are actually okay in the IDE department, with the help of the 
community, even if you don't like to consider it to be a part of Emacs.

We really are much better in that regard these days than we were even a 
couple years ago. A lot of it is thanks to VS Code and LSP, of course, 
but not all.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 16:22:43 +0300
> 
> > Currently, we have many more features, but in the IDE department we
> > lag after those "limited" alternatives.  We need to catch up.
> 
> We are actually okay in the IDE department, with the help of the 
> community, even if you don't like to consider it to be a part of Emacs.

I don't think I agree, as I hear a lot of complaints about the
difficulties to set up an environment for working on this or that
language.  Even if all the parts of the solution are already in place
(and I don't think they are), the difficulty in bringing them to work
together in a coherent way is something that needs fixing, IMO.

> We really are much better in that regard these days than we were even a 
> couple years ago.

If so, it's good to know.  But I don't think we are quite there yet.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
>> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 16:22:43 +0300
>> 
>> > Currently, we have many more features, but in the IDE department we
>> > lag after those "limited" alternatives.  We need to catch up.
>> 
>> We are actually okay in the IDE department, with the help of the 
>> community, even if you don't like to consider it to be a part of Emacs.
>
> I don't think I agree, as I hear a lot of complaints about the
> difficulties to set up an environment for working on this or that
> language.  Even if all the parts of the solution are already in place
> (and I don't think they are), the difficulty in bringing them to work
> together in a coherent way is something that needs fixing, IMO.

Those problems exists but, unfortunately, what we could do to fix them
is limited. The complexity is not on setting-up Emacs itself, but on
installing and integrating the required *external dependencies* with the
corresponding Emacs package. It is very similar to setting Emacs on
Windows to work with grep, etc but with the added problem that the
external tools are not simple executable files that you must put on the
right place, but huge frameworks that comes on several variations
depending on their version and publisher.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 18:07, Óscar Fuentes wrote:

>>> We are actually okay in the IDE department, with the help of the
>>> community, even if you don't like to consider it to be a part of Emacs.
>>
>> I don't think I agree, as I hear a lot of complaints about the
>> difficulties to set up an environment for working on this or that
>> language.  Even if all the parts of the solution are already in place
>> (and I don't think they are), the difficulty in bringing them to work
>> together in a coherent way is something that needs fixing, IMO.
> 
> Those problems exists but, unfortunately, what we could do to fix them
> is limited. The complexity is not on setting-up Emacs itself, but on
> installing and integrating the required *external dependencies* with the
> corresponding Emacs package. It is very similar to setting Emacs on
> Windows to work with grep, etc but with the added problem that the
> external tools are not simple executable files that you must put on the
> right place, but huge frameworks that comes on several variations
> depending on their version and publisher.

The difficulty varies with the language and environment, but generally 
the steps can be:

- Install eglot and company.
- Install the appropriate language server program for the language 
you're going to be working in. For C/C++ all options are based on Clang, 
I think. Here's an incomplete list: 
https://github.com/joaotavora/eglot/blob/5f629ebfb680f43849ca894c7166a2b54ff5ba50/eglot.el#L81 
https://langserver.org/ also has a table.

You may have to add it to PATH.

- M-x global-company-mode (add it to the init script later).
- Open a file inside your project and M-x eglot.

Wait for the server to start and enjoy the completion/code navigation 
and documentation lookup features. Some refactorings as well, where 
supported.

A lot of the current user complains can be attributed to the fact that 
there is no single officially blessed, documented way to get IDE 
features in Emacs, but the above is a solid option.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 04:39:34PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
>> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 16:22:43 +0300
>>
>> > Currently, we have many more features, but in the IDE department we
>> > lag after those "limited" alternatives.  We need to catch up.
>>
>> We are actually okay in the IDE department, with the help of the
>> community, even if you don't like to consider it to be a part of Emacs.
>
>I don't think I agree, as I hear a lot of complaints about the
>difficulties to set up an environment for working on this or that
>language.  Even if all the parts of the solution are already in place
>(and I don't think they are), the difficulty in bringing them to work
>together in a coherent way is something that needs fixing, IMO.
>
For this issue spaceemacs has the so called sets. They don't reinvent
the wheel, they just integrate the packages that the community created
as a different/independent pieces. This is not optimal, but at least
is more scalable to maintain and modular. 

>> We really are much better in that regard these days than we were even a
>> couple years ago.
>
>If so, it's good to know.  But I don't think we are quite there yet.
>
Part of the problems we have to integrate environments is the collapse
of keybindings and overlap of functionalities. Just an EXAMPLE: We have
ycm, irony and rtags for the same purpose, and now lsp just came out. So
there are 3 pieces of code very complex and important but with few
people each. Same with anaconda-jedi-elpy, flycheck-flymake.

A technical question (a bit out of topic, but somehow related):

1) Why the core emacs decided to include flymake instead of flycheck
that is more modular and supports more languages?

2) Does it makes sense to make the keybindings case sensitive?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Noam Postavsky]

On Fri, 17 May 2019 at 11:40, Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> wrote:

> 1) Why the core emacs decided to include flymake instead of flycheck
> that is more modular and supports more languages?

The original flycheck author (who still holds the copyright on a large
portion of its code) strongly objects to including flycheck in Emacs.

https://github.com/flycheck/flycheck/issues/1177#issuecomment-267445833

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 17:39:50 +0200
> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> 1) Why the core emacs decided to include flymake instead of flycheck
> that is more modular and supports more languages?

Legal issues, AFAIR.

> 2) Does it makes sense to make the keybindings case sensitive?

No, not IMO.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 04:13:53PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
>
>Is an Emacs installation really significantly larger than a Vim
>installation nowadays?
>
In arch Linux:

39M     /var/cache/pacman/pkg/emacs-26.1-2-x86_64.pkg.tar.xz

1.5M    /var/cache/pacman/pkg/vim-8.1.1186-1-x86_64.pkg.tar.xz
5.6M    /var/cache/pacman/pkg/vim-runtime-8.1.1186-1-x86_64.pkg.tar.xz

>> The gui interface is not important at all for me. This is one of the
>> very simple changes that could take 5 minutes to do and 3 months arguing
>> in the mailing list.
>
>Then I guess you are in a minority.  Certainly among newcomers.
>
Most Linux users are very terminal lovers. Actually many mac users like
mac because there is a bash shell, and even MS added the BashOnWindows
for a reason. 
>
>
>In that case, I don't even understand why you brought that up.  Not
>having modes comes with a price, and IMO it is not too high.  Once we
>all are on the same page about this basic fact, we should stop wasting
>time discussing it.  Arguing for a change in basic bindings like C-f,
>"C-x C-f", etc. is a non-starter, the community will never agree to
>something like that.
>
I know, but still those they are uncomfortable distributed on the
keyboard. Now that the TKL keyboards are becoming popular again is not
a good idea to rely on the arrow keys too much.

>> My real proposes (if any, which is not actually) would be to change
>> those basic ones with jkli, or asdw (it is just an example).
>
>This is not going to fly, no way.
>
I know that's why the "(if any, which is not actually)" was added.

>> Delete redundant bindings like ESC = Alt for prefixes, M-4 = C-u, or
>> the numerical prefixes with alt and C and keep only one.
>
>This will cause more keystrokes in some cases.  E.g., if the binding
>is Meta-something, the M-digit binding is very handy, and the same
>with commands that are Control-something.
>
I still don't know any user that uses the numeric arguments for common
commands. But I know this won't change either.
>
>> Join similar "opposite" commands like C-o and C-j, or comment
>> uncomment to exploit negative prefix for one of them
>
>This is not ergonomic for frequent commands (witness how you exempt
>DEL from this scheme), because typing the prefix too frequently is
>painful.
>
>
>Anyway, which other editor does that?  They all have different
>commands to DO and to un-DO.
>
They use C-z and C-S-z for undo-redo. That's why I asked in other email
about case sensitive bindings. Same for many others.

>> Reserve one prefix only for user specific functions and recommend
>> the packages not to use that.
>
>That's C-c, which we already have.
>

But some modes sets commands there like message mode, so the user needs
to care not reassign any in all the modes he uses. And sometimes there
are collapses (personal experience)

>> Enable some extra verbose features when there is not any
>> configuration file and not using -Q (because it is a hint that
>> probably it is a new user or an old user in a foreign machine) (I
>> mean which-key for example)
>
>What is which-key.
>
https://github.com/justbur/emacs-which-key

>The idea to be more verbose is an interesting one, but I don't yet see
>what kind of implementation do you envision.  For starters, where will
>the extra text come from, and where and under what conditions will it
>be displayed?
>
https://github.com/justbur/emacs-which-key
https://github.com/abo-abo/hydra

These are good starter points. Abo-abo actually holds a copyright
already. And all his packages modernize emacs a lot.

>> Actually all vim users are terminal users
>
>Then I don't think we should be too interested in those, when we
>describe modernization of Emacs.
>
I disagree, specially considering that the GNU/Linux OS is our main
destination. Else we need to center more in MSW (no coherent with free
software promotion, but also, in that case, the cua-mode must be
default, because C-x C-c C-v C-z are the standard there for
everything. And we won't convince any average MSW user to change that.
>
>
>> The gui support is a good move, but most of our potential
>> (short-medium time) users are terminal dependents.
>
>That should be backed up by some statistics.  I don't think it's true,
>but even if it is, it just is one result of us lagging behind in the
>IDE department.
>
We just need to consider the statistics of the users who use emacs
(including spacemacs) and what OS they use. Linux for desktop is sadly a
fail in the short medium time, but the number of GNU/Linux users keeps
growing (very slowly, but growing). And the most popular distributions
are not the most fancy-desktop-oriented ones. At the moment we can't
compite as an IDE for comercial software, so the probabilities that a 20
yo MS user chose emacs over VS or androidStudio are very low compared to
a Linux user that is developing backend, embedded systems or HPC. And
also the door for windows is opening with Azure and BashForLinux.
>
>> >Line numbers are a _must_ in vim, because so many commands _require_
>> >you to name the line numbers.  See your example above.  That Emacs
>> >originally didn't have line numbers is because you don't actually
>> >_need_ them so much.
>> >
>> For programming it is a must, actually.
>
>I disagree.
>
This is a deadlock ;p
>
>> Compilation errors and warnings are much simple to find that way.
>
>Our compilation-related features make that entirely unneeded.
>
If we use only C, yes, but in PHP (where an interpreter server produces
a log), Python mode (that the script is sent to an external terminal) or
Latex projects (built in latexmk), or fancy compilers like Rust... in
general we end up opening a terminal (in or outside emacs) an building
by hand. CMake project are difficult to set up as they use out of
sources compilation for everything and in tramp mode the remote
compilation usually needs to set up environment or lmod modules
dynamically ... The compilation engine can't be optimized/configured for
all those cases. If we do for 300 use cases there will be 300 more at
the moment.
>
>> Also, going to a line is the kind of command that must have only a 2
>> keys binding by default (and probably a behavior like
>> goto-line-preview by default)
>
>Why would one need to go to a line by its number, when you have
>fast-movement commands like "C-u C-u C-n"?
>
This is a joke right? ;) xdisp.c is a good example: long file, long
functions, lisp variables in the button and macros on the top.

Another example is how imenu fails in C++ mode when there are classes
and namespaces in a long file. So for going to a function isearch or
line numbers are the only alternatives.
>
>> >This also means that you can never have a MUA in vim, or an IDE, or a
>> >debugger front-end or anything even remotely similar to Org.  Let the
>> >people who want simplicity at a price of a limited editor use vim.  It
>> >is not them that I think we should attract.
>> >
>> I mention this because there is too much code to maintain and of course
>> we can't do the best in all those fields.
>
>That's the price, yes.  But removing valuable features to make the
>maintenance easier is IMO the wrong way of solving this problem.
>
It is the only really scalable solution I can see in the medium-long
term. And it is not applicable to everything of course.

But maintain everything, add new complex features to compete with
specialized applications already available that has been corrected and
upgraded among years I don't think will never work (Unix principles
imposes here, do one thing and do it right). We will not create a better
Lisp compiler that specialized projects that center all their effort on
that. Or gtags or a shell. It is impossible and unneeded.
>
>> >We don't _want_ success of the vim type.  That's the wrong type of
>> >success for Emacs.
>> >
>> Why?
>
>Because we are a different kind of beast, see above.
>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 21:24:29 +0200
> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org

This discussion is going nowhere useful.  So I'm going to respond just
to a couple of minor issues, and let's just stop and agree to disagree
about the rest, okay?  (Personally, I'm amazed you use Emacs with such
ideas in your head, excuse my being blunt.)

> >> Join similar "opposite" commands like C-o and C-j, or comment
> >> uncomment to exploit negative prefix for one of them
> >
> >This is not ergonomic for frequent commands (witness how you exempt
> >DEL from this scheme), because typing the prefix too frequently is
> >painful.
> >
> >
> >Anyway, which other editor does that?  They all have different
> >commands to DO and to un-DO.
> >
> They use C-z and C-S-z for undo-redo.

I didn't mean "undo" literally, I meant "do-SOMETHING" and
"UN-do-SOMETHING".  Every editor I've met has different commands for
action and counter-action, while you say we should have a single
command that does both.

Of course the fact that undo and redo have different keys only
confirms my point, and refutes yours.

> >> Reserve one prefix only for user specific functions and recommend
> >> the packages not to use that.
> >
> >That's C-c, which we already have.
> 
> But some modes sets commands there like message mode

This is a tangent: you said "reserve one prefix", and I pointed out
that we already did.

> >> Compilation errors and warnings are much simple to find that way.
> >
> >Our compilation-related features make that entirely unneeded.
> >
> If we use only C, yes, but in PHP (where an interpreter server produces
> a log), Python mode (that the script is sent to an external terminal) or
> Latex projects (built in latexmk), or fancy compilers like Rust... in
> general we end up opening a terminal (in or outside emacs) an building
> by hand. CMake project are difficult to set up as they use out of
> sources compilation for everything and in tramp mode the remote
> compilation usually needs to set up environment or lmod modules
> dynamically ...

That just means we need to extend our support for those other
languages.

> The compilation engine can't be optimized/configured for
> all those cases. If we do for 300 use cases there will be 300 more at
> the moment.

I disagree with this, I see no reason not to extend our support to
more languages as needed.  We are doing that constantly.

> >> Also, going to a line is the kind of command that must have only a 2
> >> keys binding by default (and probably a behavior like
> >> goto-line-preview by default)
> >
> >Why would one need to go to a line by its number, when you have
> >fast-movement commands like "C-u C-u C-n"?
> >
> This is a joke right? ;) xdisp.c is a good example: long file, long
> functions, lisp variables in the button and macros on the top.

And you go there by line numbers?  Meaning that you remember by heart
the line numbers of those places?  Me, I use M-. instead, and
occasionally M-C-s and M-> (a.k.a. C-END).  I don't really care on
which line number these variables and functions live.

> Another example is how imenu fails in C++ mode when there are classes
> and namespaces in a long file. So for going to a function isearch or
> line numbers are the only alternatives.

No, the alternative is to improve the features that fail to find what
they are supposed to.

> >That's the price, yes.  But removing valuable features to make the
> >maintenance easier is IMO the wrong way of solving this problem.
> >
> It is the only really scalable solution I can see in the medium-long
> term.

I see at least one more: make the developer team larger.  Which is
actually happening, albeit slowly.

> Unix principles imposes here, do one thing and do it right

That's not applicable to Emacs, since Emacs is not a tool, it's a
programming and text-editing environment.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:12:39PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 21:24:29 +0200
>> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>
>This discussion is going nowhere useful.  So I'm going to respond just
>to a couple of minor issues, and let's just stop and agree to disagree
>about the rest, okay?  (Personally, I'm amazed you use Emacs with such
>ideas in your head, excuse my being blunt.)
>
>> >> Join similar "opposite" commands like C-o and C-j, or comment
>> >> uncomment to exploit negative prefix for one of them
>> >
>> >This is not ergonomic for frequent commands (witness how you exempt
>> >DEL from this scheme), because typing the prefix too frequently is
>> >painful.
>> >
>> >
>> >Anyway, which other editor does that?  They all have different
>> >commands to DO and to un-DO.
>> >
>> They use C-z and C-S-z for undo-redo.
>
>I didn't mean "undo" literally, I meant "do-SOMETHING" and
>"UN-do-SOMETHING".  Every editor I've met has different commands for
>action and counter-action, while you say we should have a single
>command that does both.
>
>Of course the fact that undo and redo have different keys only
>confirms my point, and refutes yours.
>
Actually my proposal in this point was just to find a way to release
some bindings. It was not even a real proposal at all, just an attempt.

What is clear is that all the bindings are set and we talk about new
features without binding (or a plan to bind them). Y made all the
possible questions, case sensitive bindings, release some of them, make
a C-a go to indent and then to beginning of line... anything to have
some more place without create longer bindings.

>> >> Reserve one prefix only for user specific functions and recommend
>> >> the packages not to use that.
>> >
>> >That's C-c, which we already have.
>>
>> But some modes sets commands there like message mode
>
>This is a tangent: you said "reserve one prefix", and I pointed out
>that we already did.
>

So why C-mode, message modes and others bind commands there. Then the
user does not have a reserved place confident to no create collisions. 


>> >> Compilation errors and warnings are much simple to find that way.
>> >
>> >Our compilation-related features make that entirely unneeded.
>> >
>> If we use only C, yes, but in PHP (where an interpreter server produces
>> a log), Python mode (that the script is sent to an external terminal) or
>> Latex projects (built in latexmk), or fancy compilers like Rust... in
>> general we end up opening a terminal (in or outside emacs) an building
>> by hand. CMake project are difficult to set up as they use out of
>> sources compilation for everything and in tramp mode the remote
>> compilation usually needs to set up environment or lmod modules
>> dynamically ...
>
>That just means we need to extend our support for those other
>languages.
>
That's the perfect choice (utopic), with the actual number of
maintainers, ignoring whats already in melpa (that is a lot of community
work and time improving) I think I am pessimist about the
materialization.
>
>> The compilation engine can't be optimized/configured for
>> all those cases. If we do for 300 use cases there will be 300 more at
>> the moment.
>
>I disagree with this, I see no reason not to extend our support to
>more languages as needed.  We are doing that constantly.
>
The new methods standards and systems complexity grows faster and in
many directions that what we can maintain updated enough in the core. It
is not a theoretical problem, it is a practical limitation.  
>
>> >> Also, going to a line is the kind of command that must have only a 2
>> >> keys binding by default (and probably a behavior like
>> >> goto-line-preview by default)
>> >
>> >Why would one need to go to a line by its number, when you have
>> >fast-movement commands like "C-u C-u C-n"?
>> >
>> This is a joke right? ;) xdisp.c is a good example: long file, long
>> functions, lisp variables in the button and macros on the top.
>
>And you go there by line numbers?  Meaning that you remember by heart
>the line numbers of those places?  Me, I use M-. instead, and
>occasionally M-C-s and M-> (a.k.a. C-END).  I don't really care on
>which line number these variables and functions live.
>
OK, different workflows. 

>> Another example is how imenu fails in C++ mode when there are classes
>> and namespaces in a long file. So for going to a function isearch or
>> line numbers are the only alternatives.
>
>No, the alternative is to improve the features that fail to find what
>they are supposed to.
>
That's true, but in the mean time that's what we have and some bugs need
years to be solved. This in fact is a consequence of the C++ support
limitations we were mentioning before in this threads. 
>
>> >That's the price, yes.  But removing valuable features to make the
>> >maintenance easier is IMO the wrong way of solving this problem.
>> >
>> It is the only really scalable solution I can see in the medium-long
>> term.
>
>I see at least one more: make the developer team larger.  Which is
>actually happening, albeit slowly.
>
>> Unix principles imposes here, do one thing and do it right
>
>That's not applicable to Emacs, since Emacs is not a tool, it's a
>programming and text-editing environment.
>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Noam Postavsky]

On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 09:38, Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> wrote:

> >> >> Reserve one prefix only for user specific functions and recommend
> >> >> the packages not to use that.
> >> >
> >> >That's C-c, which we already have.
> >>
> >> But some modes sets commands there like message mode
> >
> >This is a tangent: you said "reserve one prefix", and I pointed out
> >that we already did.
> >
>
> So why C-mode, message modes and others bind commands there. Then the
> user does not have a reserved place confident to no create collisions.

Please read https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Key-Binding-Conventions.html
aka (elisp) Key Binding Conventions.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Ergus wrote:

> What is clear is that all the bindings are
> set and we talk about new features without
> binding (or a plan to bind them). Y made all
> the possible questions, case sensitive
> bindings, release some of them, make a C-a go
> to indent and then to beginning of line...
> anything to have some more place without
> create longer bindings.

New prefix keys are by definition a tiny bit
longer, yes, but if placed sensibly they can be
really, really fast and ergonomic.

So don't be afraid of 'em.

Just try, and you'll fly, as the barrel racer
puts it.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> Unix principles imposes here, do one thing
>> and do it right
>
> That's not applicable to Emacs, since Emacs
> is not a tool, it's a programming and
> text-editing environment.

And howcome that is that not a tool? A Swiss
army knife and a combination plier is not
a tool either, as they contain different tools?
A toolbox is not a tool, as you can put
different tools in it? A milling machine is not
a tool, as you can use it to make yet another
tool? Maybe even a tool to improve the milling
machine itself?

No, Emacs is a tool.

Rather, Emacs is the exception that confirms
the Unix rule...

> I didn't mean "undo" literally, I meant
> "do-SOMETHING" and "UN-do-SOMETHING".
> Every editor I've met has different commands
> for action and counter-action, while you say
> we should have a single command that
> does both.

One can do that with the single `undo' command,
as I described in (I think) my previous post.
(I'm sure I'm not the first/only one doing that
and probably not the last either.)

> And you go there by line numbers?

Line numbers, here meaning the functionality,
not a vertical ruler by the side, is very
useful - when compiling, when communicating,
when editing. Indispensible I'd say (in the
context of and advanced editor, of course).

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Ergus wrote:

> I still don't know any user that uses the
> numeric arguments for common commands.

Well, now you know one who uses them all
the time.

I even have several functions I've written
myself that do different things, not just
numerically, depending on if they receive it
or not.

> They use C-z and C-S-z for undo-redo.
> That's why I asked in other email about case
> sensitive bindings. Same for many others.

I have M-0 for `undo' and for redo I hit SPC
and then do `undo' twice. (Perhaps I should
bind a redo to C-0 which I never thought of but
apparently has undefined ATM...)

> We just need to consider the statistics of
> the users who use emacs (including spacemacs)
> and what OS they use. Linux for desktop is
> sadly a fail

Linux (GNU/Linux/X/GNOME|KDE|whatever) as
a desktop is a huge success. Nowadays with the
smartphones etc the desktop itself may be in
trouble but that's another issue.

To be honest, I never cared much for it myself,
I got enough of it during my Mac Plus "Finder"
days, and later WinXP.

Emacs and a terminal emulator is much
better IMO.

> in the short medium time, but the number of
> GNU/Linux users keeps growing (very slowly,
> but growing). And the most popular
> distributions are not the most
> fancy-desktop-oriented ones.

? ... ever heard of Ubuntu?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Xavier Maillard]

> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2019 06:44:09 +0200
> From: Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
>
> > They use C-z and C-S-z for undo-redo.
> > That's why I asked in other email about case
> > sensitive bindings. Same for many others.
> 
> I have M-0 for `undo' and for redo I hit SPC
> and then do `undo' twice. (Perhaps I should
> bind a redo to C-0 which I never thought of but
> apparently has undefined ATM...)

I do not quite get it, you do M-0 for undo and SPC-M-0-M-0 for redo,
right ?

> Emacs and a terminal emulator is much
> better IMO.

100% agree. This is pretty much all I need here. For some times, I was
even in the linux console with no X server. Pro: it is super stable,
damn fast and smooth. Cons: I was being chambered by friends and
family :)

-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Xavier Maillard wrote:

> I do not quite get it, you do M-0 for undo
> and SPC-M-0-M-0 for redo, right ?

Right, only it doesn't have to to be SPC in
particular. But SPC seems to "do" the least,
altho I suppose it is just another char like
any other technically speaking.

(characterp ?\ ) ; t

-- 
underground experts united
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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Is an Emacs installation really significantly
> larger than a Vim installation nowadays?

On my RPi3 with Raspbian 9, 'aptitude show'
tells me that the "Uncompressed Size" for the
vim pack is 1,921 k, for emacs25 it is 12.8 M.

>>> Line numbers are a _must_ in vim, because
>>> so many commands _require_ you to name the
>>> line numbers. See your example above.
>>> That Emacs originally didn't have line
>>> numbers is because you don't actually
>>> _need_ them so much.
>>>
>> For programming it is a must, actually.
>
> I disagree.

Are we talking about being able to tell what
line point is at, to go to a specific line,
either thru a button or a manual command, and
so on?

If so, isn't that like one of the most basic
feature any editor whatsoever should have?

Is this a new feature to Emacs?!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 17:50:46 +0200
> From: Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > Is an Emacs installation really significantly
> > larger than a Vim installation nowadays?
> 
> On my RPi3 with Raspbian 9, 'aptitude show'
> tells me that the "Uncompressed Size" for the
> vim pack is 1,921 k, for emacs25 it is 12.8 M.

Vim I have here weighs in at 24MB, so your Vim is not really a full
package.

> >>> Line numbers are a _must_ in vim, because
> >>> so many commands _require_ you to name the
> >>> line numbers. See your example above.
> >>> That Emacs originally didn't have line
> >>> numbers is because you don't actually
> >>> _need_ them so much.
> >>>
> >> For programming it is a must, actually.
> >
> > I disagree.
> 
> Are we talking about being able to tell what
> line point is at, to go to a specific line,
> either thru a button or a manual command, and
> so on?

We are talking about displaying line numbers for each line, at the
beginning of that line.

> Is this a new feature to Emacs?!

linum.el was part of Emacs since about forever.  There's now (since
Emacs 26) a built-in display feature that replaces linum.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Vim I have here weighs in at 24MB, so your
> Vim is not really a full package.

Both sizes refer to compressed packages.
The packs rely one other things, which rely on
other things, and ultimately everything relies
on the whole computer, so I suppose Emacs and
Vim are actually equally big.

-- 
underground experts united
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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Stefan Huchler]

Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Are we talking about being able to tell what
> line point is at, to go to a specific line,
> either thru a button or a manual command, and
> so on?
>
> If so, isn't that like one of the most basic
> feature any editor whatsoever should have?

Showing lines sure goto line yes should be there but do I find it
important? Not really, because you rarely remember a line number in a
big file, you either make bookmarks or move with the search ability.

And on the screen you are on movement oven forward-block / forward-line
(word / sexp-forward) should not be almost everytime better.

If you have a descent big file you have 4 digit line numbers easy, so
you have to press a key for goto-line + 4 digits + enter 6 keys.

show me a position you can't reach with 6 keys with forward/backward
block/line. Also it's not only the amount if you want 6 blocks forward
you can press the same key 6 times which is easier then typing in a
number with 6 different numbers, and if you want to go to a specific
point in a line search is another good alternative 1 button for search
start 2. 2 3 4 letters 3 enter.

So moving through typing in line numbers for cursor movement seems to me
very seldom a good way to operate.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2019-06-02, at 12:49, Stefan Huchler <stefan.huchler@mail.de> wrote:

> Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Are we talking about being able to tell what
>> line point is at, to go to a specific line,
>> either thru a button or a manual command, and
>> so on?
>>
>> If so, isn't that like one of the most basic
>> feature any editor whatsoever should have?
>
> Showing lines sure goto line yes should be there but do I find it
> important? Not really, because you rarely remember a line number in a
> big file, you either make bookmarks or move with the search ability.
>
> [...]
>
> So moving through typing in line numbers for cursor movement seems to me
> very seldom a good way to operate.

Fair enough, but please remember that there are also other use cases.
I sometimes need to tell my teammate to look at a specific place in the
code.  Giving the line number is often the easiest way.

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://mbork.pl

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Stefan Huchler]

Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> writes:

> Fair enough, but please remember that there are also other use cases.
> I sometimes need to tell my teammate to look at a specific place in the
> code.  Giving the line number is often the easiest way.
>
> Best,

Good Point didn't think about that.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Marcin Borkowski wrote:

> I sometimes need to tell my teammate to look
> at a specific place in the code. Giving the
> line number is often the easiest way.

You don't say.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Stefan Huchler wrote:

> If you have a descent big file you have 4
> digit line numbers [...]

Why would you want a file that is 9999 lines
long, and that's still just a "descent big
file"? How big are the really big files? :O

-- 
underground experts united
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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> writes:

> In reply to the other email... I proposed to do a survey and
> functionalities interest question a long time ago in the developers
> mailing list. I even proposed some initial questions to do. Sent the
> link of some pages to publish that and finally nobody cared.

If you come with *results* of a representative survey, I'm pretty sure
that Emacs developers will study it with great attention.

But keep in mind that probing opinions is a tricky art. Recruiting
reprentative populations and making the right questions is quite
complex.

RE: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Drew Adams]

> The gui could look much modern with a couple of lines in the
> configuration. But the first impression now is like a program in windows
> 95.

"Modern" look-&-feel changes...  Imagine if hair or
clothing styles were stuck in the "modern" of 1975, 1985,
or 1995.  More important than making something look and
feel "modern" once and for all is helping it be _easily
changeable_, so it can be made (by users) to feel any way
(modern, retro, whatever) at any point in time.

Yes, it would be good if it were easier to change some of
the look-&-feel aspects of Emacs that are baked in C code.
To make that possible there would no doubt need to be more
people working on that aspect.

The argument that just attracting more users will provide
users who would contribute to that effort is weak.  Maybe,
maybe not.  What can be said is that if there are _no_ new
users then that effort won't be extended - duh.

For those aspects that users can change in _Lisp_, Emacs
shines in its ability to change look-&-feel, and other
behavior, so that it does _not_ get locked into today's
(and so yesterday's) idea of what "modern" is like.

The problem is that there are some basic look-&-feel
aspects that cannot be easily changed by users - they
are built in C and in some cases are platform-dependent.
Improving _that_ requires additional development energy,
and often quite a lot of expertise.

User-developers to work on that are, yes, sorely needed.

> My real proposes (if any, which is not actually) would be to change
> those basic ones with jkli, or asdw (it is just an example). Delete
> redundant bindings like ESC = Alt for prefixes, M-4 = C-u, or the
> numerical prefixes with alt and C and keep only one. Join similar
> "opposite" commands like C-o and C-j, or comment uncomment to exploit
> negative prefix for one of them (so we free a bind and standardize
> somehow, except C-d and DEL). Reserve one prefix only for user specific
> functions and recommend the packages not to use that.

Talk about changing default key bindings etc. to attract
new users is, in general, a waste of time.  That's _not_
the problem Emacs has wrt "modernism", as Eli and others
have pointed out.

Gaining a few great hackers to help with the C level (or
other "low-level" design/implementation) is a different
story - Emacs could really benefit from that.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Stefan Huchler]

Hello guys,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> If you want to argue that Emacs should be a dual-mode editor like the
> vi family, and that this is your "future", then we will never agree.
> One of the revolutions that Emacs brought to text editing was its lack
> of modality, where you just type text to have it inserted.  Dual-mode
> editors are a thing of the past in my eyes, a remnant from the old
> days when editors didn't have the real-time display, where you needed
> to have commands like "move N lines from the current one, then delete
> M lines" etc.  Please don't even get me (and others) started on this
> "feature".

I was reading your conversation and was mostly on your side till here. I
have to disagree with you at this point, sure many of this do things 10
times commands are very seldom useful, not never but seldom.

But that has nothing to do with modal vs non modal. Modal is more
efficiant, something simple as copy / paste is not only less keys to
press but literally more healthy, pressing c + reposition + v instead of
M-k + reposition + C-Y is just better for your fingers.

And for programmers 50% of commands you do as programmer are not basic
text manipulation like insert/delete key. So 50% of the
keystrokes/combitations you use on emacs are a attack on your health,
and are more likely to result in a error, hitting a long C-c C-q or even
longer commands is not so easy, even you don't get pain in your fingers.

Btw it's not only pain where many emacs famous hackers became problems
with, it's also getting faster tired.

http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/command-frequency.html

But I have to admit that I use the paredit commands or at least some of
em not so much for navigation but for manipulation. It kind of makes
sense and they are mostly 1-2 modifier and a arrow key. They are easy to
remember and that is a plus of course, I just think that the GNU project
should prioratise the health of their Users more than the
rememberability.

Btw there is a middle ground, look at xah-fly-keys, besides the modal
mode it also has a mode that depending on the keyboard can use key
combinations that are no keychords, so you don't have to hold a
modifier, which is what hurts your pinky.

So I hit my easy accessable Menu key and then afterwards the c key for
copying as example, the holding of keys and then stretching to other
keys is what hurts the pinky so much and why C-c C-f as example is a
horrible command.

Sadly we have to accept the current default keyboard layout therefor the
default settings in xah-fly keys is that space is the command key and
that only in command mode so for that you need the modal mode.

But we should not forget that the old emacs defaults were made for more
ergonomic keyboards that today we don't have anymore:

http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_kb_shortcuts_pain.html

They had the Ctrl and meta/alt key switched. So witch a bit of flexing
you could press the ctrl key with your thumb and not with your pinky.

So that the keyboard shortcuts are optimised for A rememberability and B
old lisps keyboards that 99.999% of the users don't use is surely not a
good default, I am sorry.

A way to solve that would maybe be intergrating something like ergoemacs
or xah-fly-keys and if you start emacs without config ask do you want
modal or classic mode, or something along that line.

Heck switching Control and Meta key in all keyboard configurations would
probably better the situation a lot. Because that was what the first
developer wanted back then with their lisp keyboards, but because of
backward compatibility the sitution became worse because the keyboard
changed and no emacs developer reacted to it.

> And you contradict yourself here: simple text editors all provide
> operations on the selected portion of text.  Emacs does that, while
> vim tells the users to remember the cryptic "N,M s/foo/bar/g" stuff
> that goes back to the 50-year old ed(1) and sed(1) editors!

I agree on that

> Excuse me, but this is nonsense.  Our menu and tool bar say copy/paste
> for at least 20 years, as do the manuals.  I wonder when people will
> stop beating this dead horse.

Yet how do you remember M-k and C-y because you know it means kill/yank,
else this shortcut makes no sense, so at least if you prioratise
rememberability over the health of the developers be consequent, if you
call it copy and paste make it C-c or M-c and for paste C-p. Then you
would at least be consequent.

That C-p is bound to previous line is no real reason because you also
have they arrow keys bound to it (which also is easier to remember), and
that C-c is for extentions their shortcut beginning also don't matter
because that problem is solved in cua-mode just add a small timer if you
are not fast enough to add the second part it's copy if you are fast
enough you can do your long shortcut.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 06:29:44PM +0200, Stefan Huchler wrote:
>Hello guys,
>
>Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> If you want to argue that Emacs should be a dual-mode editor like the
>> vi family, and that this is your "future", then we will never agree.
>> One of the revolutions that Emacs brought to text editing was its lack
>> of modality, where you just type text to have it inserted.  Dual-mode
>> editors are a thing of the past in my eyes, a remnant from the old
>> days when editors didn't have the real-time display, where you needed
>> to have commands like "move N lines from the current one, then delete
>> M lines" etc.  Please don't even get me (and others) started on this
>> "feature".
>
>I was reading your conversation and was mostly on your side till here. I
>have to disagree with you at this point, sure many of this do things 10
>times commands are very seldom useful, not never but seldom.
>
>But that has nothing to do with modal vs non modal. Modal is more
>efficiant, something simple as copy / paste is not only less keys to
>press but literally more healthy, pressing c + reposition + v instead of
>M-k + reposition + C-Y is just better for your fingers.
>
>And for programmers 50% of commands you do as programmer are not basic
>text manipulation like insert/delete key. So 50% of the
>keystrokes/combitations you use on emacs are a attack on your health,
>and are more likely to result in a error, hitting a long C-c C-q or even
>longer commands is not so easy, even you don't get pain in your fingers.
>
>Btw it's not only pain where many emacs famous hackers became problems
>with, it's also getting faster tired.
>
>http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/command-frequency.html
>
>But I have to admit that I use the paredit commands or at least some of
>em not so much for navigation but for manipulation. It kind of makes
>sense and they are mostly 1-2 modifier and a arrow key. They are easy to
>remember and that is a plus of course, I just think that the GNU project
>should prioratise the health of their Users more than the
>rememberability.
>
>Btw there is a middle ground, look at xah-fly-keys, besides the modal
>mode it also has a mode that depending on the keyboard can use key
>combinations that are no keychords, so you don't have to hold a
>modifier, which is what hurts your pinky.
>
>So I hit my easy accessable Menu key and then afterwards the c key for
>copying as example, the holding of keys and then stretching to other
>keys is what hurts the pinky so much and why C-c C-f as example is a
>horrible command.
>
>Sadly we have to accept the current default keyboard layout therefor the
>default settings in xah-fly keys is that space is the command key and
>that only in command mode so for that you need the modal mode.
>
>But we should not forget that the old emacs defaults were made for more
>ergonomic keyboards that today we don't have anymore:
>
>http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_kb_shortcuts_pain.html
>
>They had the Ctrl and meta/alt key switched. So witch a bit of flexing
>you could press the ctrl key with your thumb and not with your pinky.
>
>So that the keyboard shortcuts are optimised for A rememberability and B
>old lisps keyboards that 99.999% of the users don't use is surely not a
>good default, I am sorry.
>
I have experienced the issue that when adding a new functionality (to
isearch) there is not an available/standard method to assign a binding
for it. But also I ended discovering a new set of shortcuts I didn't
know. 

>A way to solve that would maybe be intergrating something like ergoemacs
>or xah-fly-keys and if you start emacs without config ask do you want
>modal or classic mode, or something along that line.
>
That could be something very interesting.

I am not proposing to make all the ergoemacs changes, but there are
interesting ideas there.

But ergoemacs actually failed because all the modules and packages bind
the default keys to the "expected" action. So for example next-line is
hardcoded to anything that moves one line down in helm, counsel, emms,
and so on. So at the end the user never gets a real 100% ergoemacs
experience. Similar happens in evil mode or even in cua-mode that is
integrated inside emacs. One never gets the 100% of the experience.

>Heck switching Control and Meta key in all keyboard configurations would
>probably better the situation a lot. Because that was what the first
>developer wanted back then with their lisp keyboards, but because of
>backward compatibility the sitution became worse because the keyboard
>changed and no emacs developer reacted to it.
>
>> And you contradict yourself here: simple text editors all provide
>> operations on the selected portion of text.  Emacs does that, while
>> vim tells the users to remember the cryptic "N,M s/foo/bar/g" stuff
>> that goes back to the 50-year old ed(1) and sed(1) editors!
>
>I agree on that
>
>> Excuse me, but this is nonsense.  Our menu and tool bar say copy/paste
>> for at least 20 years, as do the manuals.  I wonder when people will
>> stop beating this dead horse.
>
>Yet how do you remember M-k and C-y because you know it means kill/yank,
>else this shortcut makes no sense, so at least if you prioratise
>rememberability over the health of the developers be consequent, if you
>call it copy and paste make it C-c or M-c and for paste C-p. Then you
>would at least be consequent.
>
>That C-p is bound to previous line is no real reason because you also
>have they arrow keys bound to it (which also is easier to remember), and
>that C-c is for extentions their shortcut beginning also don't matter
>because that problem is solved in cua-mode just add a small timer if you
>are not fast enough to add the second part it's copy if you are fast
>enough you can do your long shortcut.
>
Personally I won't like to use the arrow keys, but if that could release
some bindings for a more standard behavior and simplify the access to
some functionalities (like get indentation), I will respect the
decision.

Another opportunity to release and access some similar commands affected
by the lack of bindings is to unify isearch with replace as isearch-mode
already have its own map. for a dynamic behavior there is the iedit
package. and multi-cursors.

swiper actually uses C-s for search, but C-n and C-p for next and
previous candidate, and with a bind to C-c m enables multiple cursors
(to replace all) and as C-r will be free, then it could be used to
switch from isearch to query-replace (as M-r switches to regex search).

Please, don't tell me that this won't fly; I already know.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Ergus wrote:

> I have experienced the issue that when adding
> a new functionality (to isearch) there is not
> an available/standard method to assign
> a binding for it. But also I ended
> discovering a new set of shortcuts
> I didn't know.

If you feel like you run out of shortcuts, you
can define a new prefix key, e.g.:

    (define-prefix-command          'C-o-prefix)
    (global-set-key         "\C-o"  'C-o-prefix)

> But ergoemacs actually failed because all the
> modules and packages bind the default keys to
> the "expected" action. So for example
> next-line is hardcoded to anything that moves
> one line down in helm, counsel, emms, and so
> on. So at the end the user never gets a real
> 100% ergoemacs experience. Similar happens in
> evil mode or even in cua-mode that is
> integrated inside emacs. One never gets the
> 100% of the experience.

If you set it up 100% as you'd like it, mode
for mode, you'll get it.

> Please, don't tell me that this won't fly;
> I already know.

It will fly if you do it.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Stefan Huchler wrote:

> But that has nothing to do with modal vs non
> modal. Modal is more efficiant, something
> simple as copy / paste is not only less keys
> to press but literally more healthy, pressing
> c + reposition + v instead of M-k +
> reposition + C-Y is just better for
> your fingers.

I'm not following the "reposition" stuff,
but...

If you have your hands/fingers, on at asdf and
jkl; (and thumbs on SPC) on a modern keyboard,
where the keyboard manufacturer's Alt is our
Meta, then M-k requires moving your left thumb,
in my case, ~3.5cm horizontally, and your right
hand, not at all, as the middle finger is
already at `k' position.

As for C-y, on your right hand, this requires
a move with your index finger from `j' to
`y', which is again 3.5cm, but now to the NE
which makes a tiny bit more strain to it.
On the other hand... :) ... on the left hand,
moving your pinky finger from `a' to Control is
5cm SSE, which I agree isn't optimal.

As you say later on this was designed for
keyboards where Control where at another place,
and it can be arranged (in the Linux
VT/ttys/the console as well as in X) to have
Control and CAPS change places. This is is not
a bad idea - I tried it once, but by then I was
so used to the position of Control and besides
I had rewired CAPS as well (see my HP, URL in
signature; search for CAPS) so it was too late
for me. That said, I don't think C-y is
_that_ bad!

> And for programmers 50% of commands you do as
> programmer are not basic text manipulation
> like insert/delete key.

If you mean the manufacturer's insert/delete,
they mean you move you hands away from the
asdfjkl; position which reduces speed. If you
mean C-d and DEL, I dont' think they are bad.

> hitting a long C-c C-q or even longer
> commands is not so easy, even you don't get
> pain in your fingers.

`C-c C-q' is undefined in many modes. If you
don't like it for the modes where it is and
where you use it, why don't you redefine it?
It's simple.

> I just think that the GNU project should
> prioratise the health of their Users more
> than the rememberability.

Yes, here I agree 100%.

> So I hit my easy accessable Menu key

? ... what is the "Menu key"? :O

> and then afterwards the c key for copying as
> example, the holding of keys and then
> stretching to other keys is what hurts the
> pinky so much and why C-c C-f as example is
> a horrible command.

Same comment as for `C-c C-q'.

> Yet how do you remember M-k and C-y because
> you know it means kill/yank, else this
> shortcut makes no sense, so at least if you
> prioratise rememberability over the health of
> the developers be consequent, if you call it
> copy and paste make it C-c or M-c and for
> paste C-p. Then you would at least
> be consequent.

Mnemonic keys should never be prioritized over
ergonomics. But again, I don't think M-k is
bad, and if C-y is bad, not by much. Also,
don't forget to take into consideration every
other cursor/point movement and editing command
which we can do with a keystroke, but other
editors require one to use the mouse to (maybe)
do something similar!

> That C-p is bound to previous line is no real
> reason because you also have they arrow keys

The arrow keys!? Oh no, C-p is much better.
The arrow keys require you to move your right
hand from jkl;. Instead, it is better to think
of ijkl as arrow keys (i = up, k = down, j =
left, and l = right). I have set up tons of
keys to work on that, scrolling not the
least:

    https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/scroll.el

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Not much we can do about that. Feel free to
> lobby distros to include Emacs. IMO, if
> something is related to 40-year old decision,
> it is this one.

Hell, I went to Computer School (completed my
first course 2008-10-17, 10y 7m 13d (3877d)
from now. At that point, Emacs was not only
included, there was also an introductory course
to computers which I didn't do because I had no
respect for it, _but_ they handed out a booklet
called "Gula Luntan" (the yellow tome, actually
it wasn't that hefty) but anyway _in that
booklet_ which I read two or three times were
whole sections on Emacs! Now, at the same
system, when I type 'emacs' and hit RET it
isn't to be found. I do

$ find / -name \*emacs\* 2> /dev/null | wc -l

and get nothing! Becuase computation still
hasn't found every-thig!

I do get tons' of Emacs stuff, tho...

> Emacs also works the same on all systems.
> As for "better default colors", that
> debatable at best. It's a matter of taste,
> and psychologically we tend to favor our
> first experience: old habits die hard.

And the correct taste is: 1) non-blinking
cursor, 2) black background, and 2) use all
colors that contrast as much to the background
as to each other as possible.

normal                         bright
   bk  r   g   y  bl   m   c   w  bk    r   g   y  bl   m   c   w
r  0 255   0 240 150 225   0 200 140  255   0 255 175 255 140 255
g  0 100 200 240 150 150 230 200 140  125 230 175 175 125 255 230
b  0 100   0   0 255   0 230 200 140  125   0   0 255 255 255 190

>> which is more intuitive and familiar for
>> terminal users.
>
> "terminal users"? who are those?
> what's a "terminal"? Are we really going to
> target 70-year old curmudgeons that still work
> on a 'terminal"? why? because vim does that?

We. Because he meant "terminal emulator" or
"virtual terminal" users, which I'm sure you
fathomed just as well.

> Excuse me, but this is nonsense. Our menu and
> tool bar say copy/paste for at least 20
> years, as do the manuals. I wonder when
> people will stop beating this dead horse.

Remove the menu and toolbar, and/or rename that
other stuff back to kill/yank. That will make
it cooler and more attractive.


(menu-bar-mode 0) ; do this
(menu-bar-mode 1) ; don't do this

-- 
underground experts unijted
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> writes:

>>Free Software is not a factor *today*, because most competitors are Free
>>Software too. Even Visual Studio Code is MIT-licensed.
>>
> I will no go in the free vs open source here. But no, most of the
> editors are open source, not free. 

Open Source is Free Software, at least for licenses like MIT that
respects the user's esseential freedoms as defined by the GNU manifesto:

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

As for the other points on your message, I can't go into lenghty
discussions now but I agree on everything Eli said on his response.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 5:26, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> OTOH, we have the vim phenomenon. An "old thing" which is way more
> peculiar than Emacs, but with a growing user base.

Without reading the rest of the replies, I also wanted to say this right 
away:

Vim is consistent. What most people seem to like is a small set of rules 
that guide its behavior and the predictable set of features that can be 
gained from it (aside from plugins, of course).

Well, that and Vim Golf.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 11:54:50 +0300
> 
> Vim is consistent.

So is Emacs.  Inconsistencies in key bindings are rare exceptions in
Emacs.  Even the tutorial makes the point of explaining the rules for
consistent keybindings in basic editing commands.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 12:36, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
>> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 11:54:50 +0300
>>
>> Vim is consistent.
> 
> So is Emacs.  Inconsistencies in key bindings are rare exceptions in
> Emacs.  Even the tutorial makes the point of explaining the rules for
> consistent keybindings in basic editing commands.

In the basics, sure. But I wouldn't still be using Emacs if it only 
provided basics.

We pride ourselves on being more than just an editor. But the more 
features a program provides, the more important it is to have a logical 
common structure and similar underlying principles under all those 
features. Or how else is a person supposed to remember how to use all of 
them?

Anyway, you seem to be agreeing with me, but this discussion started 
from Ergus giving an example of one such inconsistency. And I have yet 
to see you state a solid opinion about it in particular.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 14:09:45 +0300
> 
> Anyway, you seem to be agreeing with me, but this discussion started 
> from Ergus giving an example of one such inconsistency. And I have yet 
> to see you state a solid opinion about it in particular.

A single example doesn't yet make a point.  To prove we have a
problem, much more than one example will be needed.

As for my opinion on this, I make a point of not posting "me too"
responses, if I don't have something more intelligent to add to the
discussion.  Especially a discussion as long as this one.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

Sorry for starting this, this is exactly the kind of discussions I try
to avoid at any price because at the end there are a lot of emails that
finally solve nothing because there is never an agreement.

I just mentioned AN EXAMPLE. So please, as none of these issues will be
solved, just try to forget this threads (which started as a question
about using a common lisp interpreter to improve performance) and
continue working with emacs as you do normally.

Else just think what a new user would like to see in a editor (or what
they don't find in emacs) and just make a list (please open mind). And
publish that somewhere that people can vote for them.

We have this discussions so often because we only get the developer's and
old users opinion. But not a general public survey to measure global
opinions. 


On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 03:04:17PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
>> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 14:09:45 +0300
>>
>> Anyway, you seem to be agreeing with me, but this discussion started
>> from Ergus giving an example of one such inconsistency. And I have yet
>> to see you state a solid opinion about it in particular.
>
>A single example doesn't yet make a point.  To prove we have a
>problem, much more than one example will be needed.
>
>As for my opinion on this, I make a point of not posting "me too"
>responses, if I don't have something more intelligent to add to the
>discussion.  Especially a discussion as long as this one.
>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 14:56:57 +0200
> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> Sorry for starting this, this is exactly the kind of discussions I try
> to avoid at any price because at the end there are a lot of emails that
> finally solve nothing because there is never an agreement.

It is up to us whether this discussion will lead somewhere
constructive.

> I just mentioned AN EXAMPLE. So please, as none of these issues will be
> solved

If this is just a single example, then yes, we should probably forget
about it.  OTOH, if there are many such examples, we should not
forget.  Inconsistency in keybindings is baaad, mkay?  But a single
inconsistent binding, or a small number of them, are not yet a problem
that needs our attention.

RE: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Drew Adams]

> We have this discussions so often because we only get the developer's and
> old users opinion. But not a general public survey to measure global
> opinions.

The opinions of Emacs developers and experienced Emacs
user are the most helpful opinions, including in terms
of guiding where Emacs can and should go.

The opinions of non-users and non-developers of Emacs
are useful mainly in terms of discovering their
misconceptions and their current, often limited or
unfortunate experience with applications only somewhat
similar to Emacs (editors and other).

We have this discussion, especially about key bindings,
so often because there are _lots_ of non-users of Emacs
who discover Emacs, realize it's something powerful and
potentially even more powerful, but who have ingrained
key-binding etc. habits that they imagine are superior.

Eli nailed it when he gave his list of the kinds of
things Emacs really needs to improve its usefulness,
especially for programmers (e.g. IDE features).  It's
NOT at all about key bindings and such.

Perhaps most (nearly all?) newbies to Emacs initially
feel that the key bindings and interactions they were
used to before Emacs are superior or easier.  That's
been the case since Day One.

In general (and no, not always), they've been wrong
about that.  When they've been right they've just
customized their Emacs to do what they prefer.  And
in some cases Emacs has itself ended up changing
default behavior along the lines of what they've
implemented as, initially, personal customizations.

Yes, we took decades to turn on `transient-mark-mode'
by default.  And yes, we still haven't turned on
`delete-selection-mode' by default (something I'm in
favor of, FWIW).  So what?  It's so easy to turn
something on or redefine something in your init file.
The argument that Emacs should change to reflect,
out of the box, what most non-Emacs users are used to
is super-flawed, and hollow.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Drew Adams wrote:

> Eli nailed it when he gave his list of the
> kinds of things Emacs really needs to improve
> its usefulness, especially for programmers
> (e.g. IDE features). It's NOT at all about
> key bindings and such.

But we just heard Emacs does have IDE features,
only not in vanilla Emacs or even the the
[M]ELPAs? So what Emacs "needs" (yuk, that
word) isn't IDE features as much as ways of
integrating those that are already there, in
the wild, and then keeping up the good work
improving them even further?


"The truth is out there"

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Ergus wrote:

> Else just think what a new user would like to
> see in a editor (or what they don't find in
> emacs) and just make a list (please open
> mind). And publish that somewhere that people
> can vote for them.

The only thing I can think of is make it look
as cool and polished as possible. Get away with
GNU propaganda and everything redundant.

It should be like a calm, warm, futuristic
underground base in dim light but with bright
colors. A couple of cockpit-style chairs and
some big scientific work areas in a huge, oval
room, with some tools and equipment hinting in
the background on neat shelves and lockers.

This is an amazing place. Now do whatever you
want with it.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2019-05-31 21:04]:
> Ergus wrote:
> 
> > Else just think what a new user would like to
> > see in a editor (or what they don't find in
> > emacs) and just make a list (please open
> > mind). And publish that somewhere that people
> > can vote for them.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is make it look
> as cool and polished as possible. Get away with
> GNU propaganda and everything redundant.

Getting rid of GNU propaganda would mean to drop
successful actions, as that is how GNU Emacs and
plethora of free software came to existence.

Jean

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Jean Louis wrote:

> Getting rid of GNU propaganda would mean to
> drop successful actions, as that is how GNU
> Emacs and plethora of free software came
> to existence.

Reduce the "in your face" nature of it, maybe
I should have said. In the beginning, it felt
like every time you missed a keystroke up came
documents telling everything you didn't want to
know about GNU.

And:

(setq inhibit-startup-screen t)
(setq inhibit-startup-echo-area-message "incal")

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 15:04, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> Anyway, you seem to be agreeing with me, but this discussion started
>> from Ergus giving an example of one such inconsistency. And I have yet
>> to see you state a solid opinion about it in particular.
> 
> A single example doesn't yet make a point.  To prove we have a
> problem, much more than one example will be needed.

What point would I be trying to prove? That Emacs is outdated are people 
shouldn't be using it anymore?

I want us to *work toward* making Emacs more consistent, across all of 
its features. An example of it being non-consistent is not an argument, 
it's an opportunity to make it better.

> As for my opinion on this, I make a point of not posting "me too"
> responses, if I don't have something more intelligent to add to the
> discussion.  Especially a discussion as long as this one.

Since you're the person to make the ultimate choice, your silence should 
be taken to mean you don't see a reason to change things.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 16:17:56 +0300
> 
> On 17.05.2019 15:04, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> Anyway, you seem to be agreeing with me, but this discussion started
> >> from Ergus giving an example of one such inconsistency. And I have yet
> >> to see you state a solid opinion about it in particular.
> > 
> > A single example doesn't yet make a point.  To prove we have a
> > problem, much more than one example will be needed.
> 
> What point would I be trying to prove? That Emacs is outdated are people 
> shouldn't be using it anymore?

No, that we have lots of inconsistencies in keybindings (or
elsewhere).

> > As for my opinion on this, I make a point of not posting "me too"
> > responses, if I don't have something more intelligent to add to the
> > discussion.  Especially a discussion as long as this one.
> 
> Since you're the person to make the ultimate choice, your silence should 
> be taken to mean you don't see a reason to change things.

I hope now it is clear that would be a wrong interpretation.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 16:35, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> No, that we have lots of inconsistencies in keybindings (or
> elsewhere).

That would be a more difficult discussion, probably calling for more 
changes across the board. We may go there another time, but not today, 
at least not as far as I'm concerned.

> I hope now it is clear that would be a wrong interpretation.

Why not fix at least one thing, then? It wouldn't change much by itself, 
but it would send a good message.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 16:43:14 +0300
> 
> On 17.05.2019 16:35, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > No, that we have lots of inconsistencies in keybindings (or
> > elsewhere).
> 
> That would be a more difficult discussion

You said you thought the competition was more popular because they are
more consistent.  We need evidence to support that, if we are to
believe that this is a reason.  And if it is a reason, we should work
to eliminate those inconsistencies.

Thus, a single example certainly is not enough to identify a general
problem that could explain why we are less popular.

> Why not fix at least one thing, then?

I didn't say I objected to such a change.  So this question is not for
me to answer.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 17:36, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> You said you thought the competition was more popular because they are
> more consistent.  We need evidence to support that, if we are to
> believe that this is a reason.

I think you're asking too much. The only way to undoubtedly prove 
Emacs's popularity is hurt by inconsistency is to create a mass A/B 
trial with volunteers spending time with different editors, as well as 
with a "fixed" version of Emacs, for some definition of "fixed". And 
then observing the behavior of al participants over the years.

The only things we can really do is to make the improvements (or, say, 
particular changes, to call them neutrally) and then somehow observe 
whether that improves things over time.

I never said that the competition was more popular *only because* it was 
more consistent, because there are a lot of things at play: installation 
base (for Vim), lots of marketing (mostly VS Code lately, but Atom too), 
market capture, certain features, of course. But user friendliness a 
large part of that. I think most people would agree that the user of a 
familiar editing paradigm is a serious advantage in terms of popularity.

We're probably not going to change our keybindings wholesale, but 
improving consistency can at least help learn and become comfortable 
with them faster.

And technically, changing key bindings is an easy task, so that wouldn't 
require too much actual work. I might also improve our image a little 
within the existing community, where the prevailing thinking is, 
unfortunately, that we're afraid to change long-standing behaviors, even 
if it's ultimately for the better.

> And if it is a reason, we should work
> to eliminate those inconsistencies.

So my vote is to simply work toward better UI, one step at a time. As 
long as the total capability of the features that we provide is not 
diminished, I do not think most existing users would really become 
upset. Similar to how John Yates put, it's going to take more than some 
changed/removed key bindings to drive away old and experienced users.

> Thus, a single example certainly is not enough to identify a general
> problem that could explain why we are less popular.

It's not the question I've been trying to answer.

>> Why not fix at least one thing, then?
> 
> I didn't say I objected to such a change.  So this question is not for
> me to answer.
Who then? Alan, who never saw this thread? Would you say that somebody 
should finally file the bug report?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 19:54:45 +0300
> 
> So my vote is to simply work toward better UI, one step at a time.

Is that different from what we do now?  If so, in what way?

> >> Why not fix at least one thing, then?
> > 
> > I didn't say I objected to such a change.  So this question is not for
> > me to answer.
> Who then? Alan, who never saw this thread? Would you say that somebody 
> should finally file the bug report?

If filing a bug will make a difference, yes.  Of course, we can fix
problems even without a filed bug, it isn't unheard of.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 18.05.2019 20:17, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> So my vote is to simply work toward better UI, one step at a time.
> 
> Is that different from what we do now?  If so, in what way?

In that somebody mentioned a specific issue, and we're not fixing it 
yet. Instead we're talking about global problems.

> If filing a bug will make a difference, yes.  Of course, we can fix
> problems even without a filed bug, it isn't unheard of.

OK, what should I do? You're the boss. I can probably easily fix it with 
a commit and push. Should I?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

>> If filing a bug will make a difference, yes.  Of course, we can fix
>> problems even without a filed bug, it isn't unheard of.
>
> OK, what should I do? You're the boss. I can probably easily fix it
> with a commit and push. Should I?

What you pretend is to completely ignore the maintainer of a prominent
package to force your very personal preference and implement a change
that, by your own admission, harms the users of that package without
benefiting Emacs in a tangible way other than "being uniform".

That's toxic.

FYI, Org-mode also assigns C-c C-c to something that does not align to
your schema. As does Eshell. And M-x shell. And Magit.

Please stop with this nonsense.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[조성빈]

> 2019. 5. 19. 오전 8:54, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> 작성:
> 
> Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:
> 
>>> If filing a bug will make a difference, yes.  Of course, we can fix
>>> problems even without a filed bug, it isn't unheard of.
>> 
>> OK, what should I do? You're the boss. I can probably easily fix it
>> with a commit and push. Should I?
> 
> What you pretend is to completely ignore the maintainer of a prominent
> package to force your very personal preference and implement a change
> that, by your own admission, harms the users of that package without
> benefiting Emacs in a tangible way other than "being uniform”.

What you pretend is to completely ignore the importance of coherence and force your very personal preference, and harm users of that package by making them surprised by not being uniform.

> That's toxic.
> 
> FYI, Org-mode also assigns C-c C-c to something that does not align to
> your schema. As does Eshell. And M-x shell. And Magit.

And, that’s exactly the point! Emacs *is* inconsistent, and we should try to eliminate them (hopefully before a bigger user base appears).
There’s a point where any kind of big software platform has an HIG, like Apple macOS, iOS, or XDG, Gnome, Qt, e.g… and I would appreciate if we can make an HIG for Emacs packages.
Thinks like keybindings, UI, messages, etc. 

> Please stop with this nonsense.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

조성빈 <pcr910303@icloud.com> writes:

>> FYI, Org-mode also assigns C-c C-c to something that does not align to
>> your schema. As does Eshell. And M-x shell. And Magit.
>
> And, that’s exactly the point! Emacs *is* inconsistent,

No, it isn't.

Somehow you decided that using C-c C-c with the same semantics across
unrelated modes is desirable because consistence. Furthermore, you
decided which semantics is the right one.

Well, this is wrong.

Why those modes that you take as models for C-c C-c use precisely that
binding for sending text to an inferior process? Because it is the most
used action and, hence, it is natural to use a keybinding that is fast
and easy to type.

That's the same reason why Org-mode uses C-c C-c for its most frequent
actions, although you pretend to remove that convenience because
"consistency"... when in fact you'll be reducing consistency!

Likewise, (E)shell and CC-Mode use C-c C-c because it is easy to relate
to the associated action *and* because it is easy to type.

Thus, you also would reduce Emacs' ergonomics and mnemonics because of
your false idea of consistency.

It is important to understand why things are as they are before acting
as if those who made them were incompetent and the world is depending on
us to fix their glaring mistakes.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Stefan Huchler]

Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:

> Why those modes that you take as models for C-c C-c use precisely that
> binding for sending text to an inferior process? Because it is the most
> used action and, hence, it is natural to use a keybinding that is fast
> and easy to type.
>
> That's the same reason why Org-mode uses C-c C-c for its most frequent
> actions, although you pretend to remove that convenience because
> "consistency"... when in fact you'll be reducing consistency!
>
> Likewise, (E)shell and CC-Mode use C-c C-c because it is easy to relate
> to the associated action *and* because it is easy to type.
>
> Thus, you also would reduce Emacs' ergonomics and mnemonics because of
> your false idea of consistency.
>
> It is important to understand why things are as they are before acting
> as if those who made them were incompetent and the world is depending on
> us to fix their glaring mistakes.

I replaced as example C-c C-c in org mode (edit-special) with Menu + d +
d, the problem is that vanilla Emacs doesn't allow that kind of bindings
as far as I know:

(:map xah-fly-e-keymap
	  ("e" . (lambda () (interactive)
		   (if org-src-mode (org-edit-src-exit)
		     (org-edit-special)))))

But I have no standard keyboard, but the fly-keys can also be accessed
with Space + d + d. (in command mode)

And it's e in the code because I use dvorak. d is easier to hit as c,
and C is not more rememberable then d it's completely randomly chosen.

Also I would argue that most people press C-c C-c with left control
instead of the ergonomic way to use the right control therefor you train
people to use unergonomic keychords.

But the main problem is not the char you use but that you have to hold
this modifiers, which "reduces ergonomics" as compromise I would also
be ok with having some sort of sticky keys? and you press once Ctrl
release then press c c.

But this is not even a optional feature in emacs:
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/StickyModifiers

And I would argue it should be the default behaviour, but it should at
least be a opiton. So don't claim it has to do with mnemonics or
ergonomics it has historic reasons not more not less. I would also argue
that consistence is not that important.

But another suggestion for that, if C-c C-c is meant as shortcut for a
"important-function" why not have a binding for "do-important-action" or
"do-major-action" and depending on mode that functions calls the
important function of the mode. So that the user can choose globaly a
keybinding for that and don't has to do that for 80 modes
seperately. and the developer of the mode just somewhere sets which
function is bound to C-c C-c by setting:
(setq mode-important-function 'compile...)

That would give at least so much consistancy that you don't have to
change the keybinding 50 times in 50 modes if you want to change it, and
in some where I was to lazy yet I still have to press C-c C-c and in
some I press my Menu + e + e. 

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Stefan Huchler <stefan.huchler@mail.de> writes:

> I replaced as example C-c C-c in org mode (edit-special) with Menu + d +
> d, the problem is that vanilla Emacs doesn't allow that kind of bindings
> as far as I know:
>
> (:map xah-fly-e-keymap
> 	  ("e" . (lambda () (interactive)
> 		   (if org-src-mode (org-edit-src-exit)
> 		     (org-edit-special)))))
>
> But I have no standard keyboard, but the fly-keys can also be accessed
> with Space + d + d. (in command mode)
>
> And it's e in the code because I use dvorak. d is easier to hit as c,
> and C is not more rememberable then d it's completely randomly chosen.
>
> Also I would argue that most people press C-c C-c with left control
> instead of the ergonomic way to use the right control therefor you train
> people to use unergonomic keychords.

I'm afraid that this is hard to fix from Emacs. People (myself included)
tend to chord in unhealthy ways. The problem is similar to postural
injuries: you feel comfortable but you are harming yourself on the long
term. The real solution is to train people on ergonomics. Admitedly,
Emacs is not a model of good practices on this regards.

> But the main problem is not the char you use but that you have to hold
> this modifiers, which "reduces ergonomics" as compromise I would also
> be ok with having some sort of sticky keys? and you press once Ctrl
> release then press c c.

I'll argue that holding "C-c C-c" is more ergonomic that "C-c c". As for
sticky keys, maybe you can activate them with your OS/desktop
environment?

> But this is not even a optional feature in emacs:
> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/StickyModifiers
>
> And I would argue it should be the default behaviour, but it should at
> least be a opiton. So don't claim it has to do with mnemonics or
> ergonomics it has historic reasons not more not less. I would also argue
> that consistence is not that important.

I never claimed that C-c C-c was chosen because it is ergonomic on a
global sense, but because is ergonomic given the imposed constraints
which require the C-c prefix for major modes.

> But another suggestion for that, if C-c C-c is meant as shortcut for a
> "important-function" why not have a binding for "do-important-action" or
> "do-major-action" and depending on mode that functions calls the
> important function of the mode. So that the user can choose globaly a
> keybinding for that and don't has to do that for 80 modes
> seperately. and the developer of the mode just somewhere sets which
> function is bound to C-c C-c by setting:
> (setq mode-important-function 'compile...)
>
> That would give at least so much consistancy that you don't have to
> change the keybinding 50 times in 50 modes if you want to change it, and
> in some where I was to lazy yet I still have to press C-c C-c and in
> some I press my Menu + e + e. 

This is one of those ideas that sounds good when proposed but are hard
to implement. You will face obstacles as, for instance, the fact that
key bindings are mentioned on the manual files as well all over the
websphere on questions and answers, etc. Then you have the problem of
collisions, etc.

This is an area that I'm interested on and, on the past, I proposed some
steps towards better discoverability and ergonomy and volunteered to do
the boring, lengthy, clerical part of the job, but no Emacs hacker was
interested enough to do the technical part.

I also pondered similar ideas to what others proposed on this thread
about some sort of "semantic" UI but it is a very hard problem, moreover
if you try to implement something solid that could be defended with
rigorous arguments instead of something that others will view as a
collection of personal quirks.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1026 bytes --]

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 08:40:23PM +0200, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> Stefan Huchler <stefan.huchler@mail.de> writes:

[...]

> > Also I would argue that most people press C-c C-c with left control
> > instead of the ergonomic way to use the right control therefor you train
> > people to use unergonomic keychords.
> 
> I'm afraid that this is hard to fix from Emacs. People (myself included)
> tend to chord in unhealthy ways. The problem is similar to postural
> injuries: you feel comfortable but you are harming yourself on the long
> term. The real solution is to train people on ergonomics. Admitedly,
> Emacs is not a model of good practices on this regards.

I think one of the biggest "failures" in this monster thread is, IMHO,
the failure to realize that different people are... different.

I keep reading things like "ergonomic", "consistent", etc. as if the
authors had the ultimate yardstick for that.

Go tell a pro violinist that the way she holds her violin is unergonomic.

Cheers
-- t

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
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RE: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Drew Adams]

> I think one of the biggest "failures" in this monster thread is, IMHO,
> the failure to realize that different people are... different.
> 
> I keep reading things like "ergonomic", "consistent", etc. as if the
> authors had the ultimate yardstick for that.
> 
> Go tell a pro violinist that the way she holds her violin is unergonomic.

+1

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

> I think one of the biggest "failures" in this monster thread is, IMHO,
> the failure to realize that different people are... different.
>
> I keep reading things like "ergonomic", "consistent", etc. as if the
> authors had the ultimate yardstick for that.
>
> Go tell a pro violinist that the way she holds her violin is unergonomic.

Musculoskeletal & nervous injuries are common among musicians, pro and
not-pro. Not so common as among keyboard users, because the former, as
part of their learning, are instructed about correct postures and
exercises.

Ergonomics is a well established discipline. Not exact, but mature
enough to say with a very high level of confidence that certain
practices are harmful.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> Ergonomics is a well established discipline.
> Not exact, but mature enough to say with
> a very high level of confidence that certain
> practices are harmful.

The best ergonomic thing I ever did was to get
a projector and have Emacs displayed on a wall.
That way, you keep your back and head straight.

I actually think this has improved my posture
AFK as well - people always tell me I have good
posture!

Once I entered a muay Thai fight club and when
I addressed the club owner (who is a champion,
let be in a small sport, small sport here that
is), when I addressed the owner with some
practical question, he immediately straightened
his whole body and filled his chest with air!

A muay Thai champ! I didn't know Emacs could
do that :)

The second best thing I did was to get rid of
the mouse. I did both some ten years ago and
the reason was then I had severe eye problems.

The eye problems wasn't because of computer
use, but because of shampoo getting into my
eyes! But I didn't know that, and it still hurt
the most when I did computers (I did CS at the
university at that time) so naturally I thought
it was the computers that caused it, so
I started configure everything to limit the
strain, and the two biggest changes was the
projector and the mouse.

Now, eye problems are gone but I stick with
almost everything I did back then, as it makes
sense regardless IMO.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Van L]

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

> Go tell a pro violinist that the way she holds her violin is unergonomic.

And, follow-up with a leading question on the ergonomy of the erhu.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
    "Once you get to that elite level, we are all the same." - Pat Farmer

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Robert Thorpe]

Stefan Huchler <stefan.huchler@mail.de> writes:

> But the main problem is not the char you use but that you have to hold
> this modifiers, which "reduces ergonomics" as compromise I would also
> be ok with having some sort of sticky keys? and you press once Ctrl
> release then press c c.
>
> But this is not even a optional feature in emacs:
> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/StickyModifiers

In Emacs sticky keys aren't so simple.  The one you give is a fairly
good example.

The keybindings of the form "C-c C-something" are used by the current
mode.  So, C-mode enables "C-c C-c", for example.  The bindings of the
form "C-c something" are for the user to define.  Where the "something"
isn't control, of course.

How is this to work with sticky key?  Does the user have to press ctrl
then c and then ctrl again to switch off the stickiness before pressing
c the second time?  A timeout could also be used, but that brings it's
own problems.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Stefan Huchler]

Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes:

> The keybindings of the form "C-c C-something" are used by the current
> mode.  So, C-mode enables "C-c C-c", for example.  The bindings of the
> form "C-c something" are for the user to define.  Where the "something"
> isn't control, of course.
>
> How is this to work with sticky key?  Does the user have to press ctrl
> then c and then ctrl again to switch off the stickiness before pressing
> c the second time?  A timeout could also be used, but that brings it's
> own problems.

No you would change it to Ctrl + c + c.

You only need the timeout if you use both my ideas I mentioned at the
same time. So CUA mode uses a timeout, but it does not use sticky keys.

So if you press C-c it runs a small timeout and if you don't press
something else that like again C-c it uses it as copy command like
notepad/gedit would do.

But if you don't need this double use of C-c you could do it without a
timeout. and Just do the Ctrl + c + c and skip the second Ctrl.

You barely find a mode that has both defined. C-c c and C-c C-c.

But that is when you limit the bindings to C-c as start. so I güss here
in Message mode C-c C-f s stands for change subject and append and C-c
C-f C-s stands for move to subject.

Both would be come down to
Ctrl + c + f + s in my suggestion.

So you would need to press the Ctrl again but that would be still more
ergonomic than keeping the key pressed I think, because holding and
streating the finger is still less ergonomic.

My solution for C-c C-c in that mode and in most is to bind it to:
<menu> m	message-send-and-exit

But I have no standard keyborad :D

But we do it with Shift the same way, if I would write TEST I press left
shift + t + rshift + e + lshift + s + lshit + t, maybe I hold it for the
last 2 letters but I use always the one on the oposite site, because
that is more ergonomic.

And now ask yourself do you ergonomically correctly press left control +
c or right control, most including me use left, which is not ergonomic,
but it's faster and deep in our muscle memory.

But to make it short with that minimal backward compatible change yes
you would press ctrl again and I don't see a need for a timeout.

The only problem would be that you have to implement it for every os and
that might not be totally trivial. xah-fly-keys does that with menu or
whatever key you define but menu is no modifier key it's harder to do
with modifier keys because the US normaly first waits after you press a
modifier what follows and sents that compiled thing as keysignal to the
process, as far as I know.

So describe key doesn't even register that I press Ctrl till I press a
non modifier key. But if xemacs could do it emacs should be able, too.

And I mean gnome can do it too. and Emacs is also only a desktop
environment (exwm) :D

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Robert Thorpe]

Stefan Huchler <stefan.huchler@mail.de> writes:
>
> You barely find a mode that has both defined. C-c c and C-c C-c.

You don't understand my point.  You should not be able to find *any*
mode that defines C-c c.  That's because C-c c is in the *users* range
of keybindings.

All keybindings of the form "C-c something" are reserved for setting by
the user.  Let's say you have a command that doesn't have a key.  You
want to assign it to a key.  You're supposed to use a keybinding
beginning with C-c and then an alphabetic key afterwards (e.g. C-c a C-c
w C-c p, etc).  It's the same if you write your own elisp command and
want to assign that to a key.  Many users assign lots of of their own
keys.

See: (info "(elisp) Key Binding Conventions").

The problem with your plan is that the effect it would have on this.
Either the user key-range would disappear or it would become very clumsy
to use.  I think the ability to define your own keys is an essential
feature of Emacs.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Stefan Huchler]

Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes:

> Stefan Huchler <stefan.huchler@mail.de> writes:
>>
>> You barely find a mode that has both defined. C-c c and C-c C-c.
>
> You don't understand my point.  You should not be able to find *any*
> mode that defines C-c c.  That's because C-c c is in the *users* range
> of keybindings.

Ahh I thought a while it was meant everything that starts with C-c which
would also include C-c C-c as example that explains much :D.


> Many users assign lots of of their own
> keys.

Yes I do that too, but not limited to C-c *. But I understand your
problem now with Sticky keys, well then you would have to press C again
if you want to use C-c C-c as example, Problem solved.

> The problem with your plan is that the effect it would have on this.
> Either the user key-range would disappear or it would become very clumsy
> to use.  I think the ability to define your own keys is an essential
> feature of Emacs.

Of course that's important I just don't see how it's clumsy? Let's say
you want or have defined C-c c as a action just do C + c c instead. And
if you want to use C-c C-c you press C + c + C + c.

Nothing changes except you don't have to hold C, you could even have
both paralell, if you press c while you pressed C it's the normal C-c if
you release it in between it counts as the same, but you need to release
it and press it again if you want the sticky C-c C-c or you hold it
through both C-c-c.

I see no real conflict, the only "Problem" I see is that you can't press
C once then press c twice and expect C-c C-c. The stickyness only persists
for 1 letter afterwards.

Does that make sense?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Robert Thorpe]

Stefan Huchler <stefan.huchler@mail.de> writes:
>
> Does that make sense?

I think it does.  So, there will be no timeout.  Instead Ctrl is sticky
until the next key is pressed, but not after that.  I could see that
working.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Robert Thorpe wrote:

>> But the main problem is not the char you use
>> but that you have to hold this modifiers,
>> which "reduces ergonomics" as compromise
>> I would also be ok with having some sort of
>> sticky keys? and you press once Ctrl release
>> then press c c. But this is not even
>> a optional feature in emacs:
>> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/StickyModifiers
>
> In Emacs sticky keys aren't so simple.
> The one you give is a fairly good example.

I have sticky keys here (I think?) [1] and
I didn't even know that was their official
name. I use them to navigate the filesystem but
yes, they can be used to invoke functions
as well.

So for example, to go to that particular file,
I hit

C-j e n

e = Emacs/Elisp file
n = navigate [the filesystem]

As you see, mnemonic which is all-but necessary
in this case since there are so many files.
Another example, to go to

    ~/.emacs.d/emacs-init/gnus/message-my.el [2]

I hit

C-j e g M

e = again Emacs/Elisp file
g = Gnus
M = message

(lowercase m is another file)


[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/navigate-fs-keys.el
[2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/gnus/message-my.el

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Stefan Huchler wrote:

> But another suggestion for that, if C-c C-c
> is meant as shortcut for
> a "important-function" why not have a binding
> for "do-important-action" or
> "do-major-action" and depending on mode that
> functions calls the important function of the
> mode. So that the user can choose globaly
> a keybinding for that and don't has to do
> that for 80 modes seperately. and the
> developer of the mode just somewhere sets
> which function is bound to C-c C-c by
> setting: (setq mode-important-function
> 'compile...)

Well, there are many functions that could be
considered the important one. People will have
different ideas what is the one to use.
Instead of configuring keys, people will start
configuring what function is the
"important-function".

Besides, most people don't use 80 modes. And if
those who do are really unhappy with keystrokes
in all 80, so be it. It is easy to change the
keys for one mode, and once one has mastered
that black art, to do it for the next 79 should
be a snap. Also, one doesn't have to do it all
in one evening.

Rather, make one adjustment every day and ten
years later you still have interesting things
to do :)

> Also I would argue that most people press C-c
> C-c with left control instead of the
> ergonomic way to use the right control
> therefor you train people to use
> unergonomic keychords.

? ... why is the right control more ergonomic?
It is farther away so at least on my keyboard
I have to move my entire right hand out of
typing position to reach it, which with the
right hand fingers just get slightly of their
asdf marks.

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> Why those modes that you take as models for
> C-c C-c use precisely that binding for
> sending text to an inferior process?
> Because it is the most used action and,
> hence, it is natural to use a keybinding that
> is fast and easy to type.
>
> That's the same reason why Org-mode uses
> C-c C-c for its most frequent actions,
> although you pretend to remove that
> convenience because "consistency"... when in
> fact you'll be reducing consistency!

That's exactly right.

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

X Y Z wrote:

> And, that's exactly the point! Emacs *is*
> inconsistent, and we should try to eliminate
> them (hopefully before a bigger user base
> appears).

We should always strive for it but there is no
need to burn down the house in order to kill
the rats.

> There's a point where any kind of big
> software platform has an HIG, like Apple
> macOS, iOS, or XDG, Gnome, Qt, e.g... and
> I would appreciate if we can make an HIG for
> Emacs packages. Thinks like keybindings, UI,
> messages, etc.

We have HIGs as well. Check out, for example

    (info "(elisp) Coding Conventions")
    (info "(elisp) Packaging")
    
and I'm sure there are better examples still,
in particular WRT keybindings.

BTW:

XDG = X Desktop Group
<https://www.quora.com/What-does-xdg-mean-literally-in-linux>

HIG = Human Interface Guidelines
<https://www.allacronyms.com/HIG/computer>

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

On May 19, 2019 1:43:15 AM GMT+03:00, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:
> On 18.05.2019 20:17, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> So my vote is to simply work toward better UI, one step at a time.
> > 
> > Is that different from what we do now?  If so, in what way?
> 
> In that somebody mentioned a specific issue, and we're not fixing it 
> yet. Instead we're talking about global problems.
> 
> > If filing a bug will make a difference, yes.  Of course, we can fix
> > problems even without a filed bug, it isn't unheard of.
> 
> OK, what should I do? You're the boss. I can probably easily fix it
> with 
> a commit and push. Should I?

As usual, please post a proposed patch with the ratiobale either to emacs-devel or (preferable) as bug report, and let's take it from there.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> You said you thought the competition was more
> popular because they are more consistent.

Emacs may be inconsistent in spots but not to
the point that people will choose other
software because of that. If so, we are dealing
with people who are ... special.

"The competition" must also be consistent
beyond belief for their's to contrast to our's
to the point people will choose them rather
than us!


PS. I put "the competition" between quotation
    marks not only because it was in a quote,
    but also because ... yeah, what is "the
    competition", exactly? In this whole thread
    I think I've heard of .NET/Mono, Eclipse,
    and Vim, all of which I don't consider
    competitors as they do different things,
    mostly, or in a very different way at
    least. Also nano and notepad has been
    mentioned, two strong competitors to Emacs
    indeed :) And ed and sed, which is us
    leaving the realm of sanity IMO. So again,
    what is the competition exactly?
    Do tell, and I'll try it out with some of
    my own source right away!

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> A single example doesn't yet make a point.
> To prove we have a problem, much more than
> one example will be needed.

I don't think trivial to minor inconsistencies
in a project as big as the Emacs world is
a problem. On the contrary, they are natural
and to have them corrected for the sake of
imposing consistency everywhere would be a big
effort, with a very small reward, and with the
almost certain side-effect of introducing bugs
and breaking old things in the process.

> As for my opinion on this, I make a point of
> not posting "me too" responses, if I don't
> have something more intelligent to add to the
> discussion. Especially a discussion as long
> as this one.

I agree. I also make a point of that. At the
very least when the discussion's length has
reached a certain point.

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 17.05.2019 12:36, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>>> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
>>> Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 11:54:50 +0300
>>>
>>> Vim is consistent.

That was not my recollection when I learned it, nor is my impression
when I use it daily as an Evil user and as an occasional "true vim"
user.

I mean, vim has certain rules that work consistently, but not everything
that vim can do is subject to consistent rules. The ":" interface, for
instance. And even on the supposedly consistent interface there are
surprising details such as dw giving different results than vwd.

>> So is Emacs.  Inconsistencies in key bindings are rare exceptions in
>> Emacs.  Even the tutorial makes the point of explaining the rules for
>> consistent keybindings in basic editing commands.
>
> In the basics, sure. But I wouldn't still be using Emacs if it only
> provided basics.
>
> We pride ourselves on being more than just an editor. But the more
> features a program provides, the more important it is to have a
> logical common structure and similar underlying principles under all
> those features. Or how else is a person supposed to remember how to
> use all of them?

I doubt anybody is interested on using all of Emacs features. Not even
10% of them. Consistence for consintence's sake is useless. On every
case (and Emacs is many editors within an editor) there are local
optimums and those should prevail over global consistence.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> I doubt anybody is interested on using all of
> Emacs features. Not even 10% of them.
> Consistence for consintence's sake is
> useless. On every case (and Emacs is many
> editors within an editor) there are local
> optimums and those should prevail over
> global consistence.

"Local optimums ... should prevail over
global consistence."

Not bad :)

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Vim is consistent.
> So is Emacs.

In terms of key-bindings, Emacs's scheme is not as regular as VI.

While we can argue that the various VI emulators are just trying to
provide for those users who like VI, the number of other "alternative
set of keybindings" (god-mode and several others) out there shows that
there's a need for something else.

I think one of the main differences (besides the fact that it's modal,
obviously) is that VI has prefix commands like `d` which Emacs lacks.
That helps make things regular/orthogonal.

`other-frame-window` is one package that tries to add such a prefix
command (actually a pair of such) to Emacs and it's not trivial to
implement.  It'd be good to extend Emacs to provide better support
for that.


        Stefan

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[조성빈]

> 2019. 5. 20. 오전 3:35, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> 작성:
> 
>>> Vim is consistent.
>> So is Emacs.
> 
> In terms of key-bindings, Emacs's scheme is not as regular as VI.
> 
> While we can argue that the various VI emulators are just trying to
> provide for those users who like VI, the number of other "alternative
> set of keybindings" (god-mode and several others) out there shows that
> there's a need for something else.
> 
> I think one of the main differences (besides the fact that it's modal,
> obviously) is that VI has prefix commands like `d` which Emacs lacks.
> That helps make things regular/orthogonal.

The fact that vim allows composing commands make vim ‘feel’ consistent (and which is a good thing) because vim doesn’t have to rely on ad-hoc conventions.
Vim changes the convention to the ‘text object’ concept, which reduces the number of keybindings and make different keys have no (or little) relationship between each other, which means the key don’t have to satisfy a certain condition to feel ‘consistent’.
I’m actually using [composable.el](https://github.com/paldepind/composable.el) currently, and also found [objed](https://github.com/clemera/objed) while surfing the web yesterday.
Would it be hard to have composable bindings as an emacs default keybinding scheme?

> `other-frame-window` is one package that tries to add such a prefix
> command (actually a pair of such) to Emacs and it's not trivial to
> implement.  It'd be good to extend Emacs to provide better support
> for that.
> 
> 
>        Stefan
> 
> 

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

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On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 02:35:17PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> >> Vim is consistent.
> > So is Emacs.
> 
> In terms of key-bindings, Emacs's scheme is not as regular as VI.

Dunno. For me, it's "regular enough". And I came from ten years of
first vi, then elvis, then vim.

I think there are difficult tradeoffs to take, and Emacs is taking
them pretty well, overall.

To arrive at "better" (default!) key bindings we'd have first to
develop an idea which is "consensual" enough to serve as that, then
carefully move in that direction (kind of what *you* have been doing
all that years, so thank you for that :-)

So I think this would be more a social task at first.

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> I think one of the main differences (besides
> the fact that it's modal, obviously) is that
> VI has prefix commands like `d` which Emacs
> lacks. That helps make things
> regular/orthogonal.

But we also have it: `define-prefix-command'

Care to explain the difference? Pretty please :)

Also, why should it be capitalized, "VI"?

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus via help-gnu-emacs]

Hi Stefan:

I agree with you about the prefix. After some suggestions in private
(from this same thread) I have been using the composable package [1] and
it works like a charm.

I didn't use it before because I didn't know about it (it is in
melpa). But it really improves the emacs editing experience a lot
without affecting the default behavior. It has the best of modal editing
(the consistency) but without the annoying modes.

There are some missing details, and things that can be improved, but I
see a lot of potential there. Probably this package (or a similar
design/reimplementation) may finish with the arguments about vim's modal
editing vs emacs memorize command and inconsistencies. Because it
provides the best of both worlds. It is compatible with transient and
delete-selection modes.

The same applies to some commands and functions that will be not needed
anymore (or needed to remember) as explained in the project's Readme.

[1] https://github.com/paldepind/composable.el


On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 02:35:17PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> Vim is consistent.
>> So is Emacs.
>
>In terms of key-bindings, Emacs's scheme is not as regular as VI.
>
>While we can argue that the various VI emulators are just trying to
>provide for those users who like VI, the number of other "alternative
>set of keybindings" (god-mode and several others) out there shows that
>there's a need for something else.
>
>I think one of the main differences (besides the fact that it's modal,
>obviously) is that VI has prefix commands like `d` which Emacs lacks.
>That helps make things regular/orthogonal.
>
>`other-frame-window` is one package that tries to add such a prefix
>command (actually a pair of such) to Emacs and it's not trivial to
>implement.  It'd be good to extend Emacs to provide better support
>for that.
>
>
>        Stefan
>
>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Ergus via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi Stefan:
>
> I agree with you about the prefix. After some suggestions in private
> (from this same thread) I have been using the composable package [1] and
> it works like a charm.
>
> I didn't use it before because I didn't know about it (it is in
> melpa). But it really improves the emacs editing experience a lot
> without affecting the default behavior. It has the best of modal editing
> (the consistency) but without the annoying modes.
>
> There are some missing details, and things that can be improved, but I
> see a lot of potential there. Probably this package (or a similar
> design/reimplementation) may finish with the arguments about vim's modal
> editing vs emacs memorize command and inconsistencies. Because it
> provides the best of both worlds. It is compatible with transient and
> delete-selection modes.
>
> The same applies to some commands and functions that will be not needed
> anymore (or needed to remember) as explained in the project's Readme.
>
> [1] https://github.com/paldepind/composable.el

That indeed is an interesting package, but keep in mind that what you
consider "annoying modes" on Vi(m) is the Right Thing for other users.
Specifically, those modes allow to avoid the Control-Meta Emacs hell.

The demographics of Evil's users consists on Vim emigrees looking for a
more powerful Vim, Emacs users who came to think that Vim's model is
more efficient and/or elegant (some of those could find composable.el
interesting) and Emacs veterans trying to alleviate their RSI-related
maladies.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus via help-gnu-emacs]

On June 11, 2019 3:37:00 PM GMT+02:00, "Óscar Fuentes" <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>Ergus via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Hi Stefan:
>>
>> I agree with you about the prefix. After some suggestions in private
>> (from this same thread) I have been using the composable package [1]
>and
>> it works like a charm.
>>
>> I didn't use it before because I didn't know about it (it is in
>> melpa). But it really improves the emacs editing experience a lot
>> without affecting the default behavior. It has the best of modal
>editing
>> (the consistency) but without the annoying modes.
>>
>> There are some missing details, and things that can be improved, but
>I
>> see a lot of potential there. Probably this package (or a similar
>> design/reimplementation) may finish with the arguments about vim's
>modal
>> editing vs emacs memorize command and inconsistencies. Because it
>> provides the best of both worlds. It is compatible with transient and
>> delete-selection modes.
>>
>> The same applies to some commands and functions that will be not
>needed
>> anymore (or needed to remember) as explained in the project's Readme.
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/paldepind/composable.el
>
>That indeed is an interesting package, but keep in mind that what you
>consider "annoying modes" on Vi(m) is the Right Thing for other users.
>Specifically, those modes allow to avoid the Control-Meta Emacs hell.
>

For users that like modes there is evil and similar modes. I was just referring to an approach to improve-simplify editing and memory usage keeping the modeless behavior.

This is actually my main concern (and complain) about emacs bindings. That the inconsistencies forces to abuse of memory (most commands are bind where there is space and  it's needed to read a documentation to know what the prefix will do) or make very long commands combinations for simple frequent tasks (like copy a whole line or 3 consecutive words)

>The demographics of Evil's users consists on Vim emigrees looking for a
>more powerful Vim, Emacs users who came to think that Vim's model is
>more efficient and/or elegant (some of those could find composable.el
>interesting) and Emacs veterans trying to alleviate their RSI-related
>maladies.

I think composable.el works very fine now but it needs some small improvements in order to make more people happy and provide a 100% standard experience (Display useful information in the modeline for example). Maybe (I have a dream) something similar to composable will be included in emacs (like vile or CUA mode). But this really looks to me like a right approach: it keeps the modeless philosophy, reduces commands to remember and inconsistencies, it is a very original solution/improvement to the key bindings limitation issues, and reduces some binding combinations to the half while keeping the backward compatibility and simplicity.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> Vim is consistent.
>
> So is Emacs. Inconsistencies in key bindings
> are rare exceptions in Emacs. Even the
> tutorial makes the point of explaining the
> rules for consistent keybindings in basic
> editing commands.

Emacs is not consistent in the consistent sense
of the word. There are conventions and that's
all good but there are many examples where
Emacs consistency is inconsistent.

Here's one from the holster. Compare:

`yes-or-no-p'

and

`getenv'

Shouldn't that last one be renamed `get-env' to
make it consistent?

Answer: No. (But it is still inconsistent.)

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Dmitry Gutov wrote:

> Vim is consistent. What most people seem to
> like is a small set of rules that guide its
> behavior and the predictable set of features
> that can be gained from it (aside from
> plugins, of course).

I don't know if Vim is consistent or not, but
if it is, that shouldn't come as a surprise
because Vim is a regular program, and as such,
perhaps a very good one, but still not
a _software world_ like Emacs.

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RE: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Drew Adams]

> > 1) vim is there in all the GNU/Linux distros.
> 
> Not much we can do about that.  Feel free to lobby distros to include
> Emacs.  IMO, if something is related to 40-year old decision, it is
> this one.

Yes.  Unix distributions did usually include both vi and
Emacs.  Why wouldn't GNU/Linux distributions include both?

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Drew Adams wrote:

>> Not much we can do about that. Feel free to
>> lobby distros to include Emacs. IMO, if
>> something is related to 40-year old
>> decision, it is this one.
>
> Yes. Unix distributions did usually include
> both vi and Emacs. Why wouldn't GNU/Linux
> distributions include both?

What's the "40-year old decision"?

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Drew Adams wrote:

>>>> Not much we can do about that. Feel free
>>>> to lobby distros to include Emacs. IMO, if
>>>> something is related to 40-year old
>>>> decision, it is this one.
>>>
>>> Yes. Unix distributions did usually include
>>> both vi and Emacs. Why wouldn't GNU/Linux
>>> distributions include both?
>> 
>> What's the "40-year old decision"?
>
> That was Eli who spoke about such a decision.
> Presumably he meant a decision, or decisions,
> by those in charge of GNU/Linux distributions
> not to include Emacs.

Yes, but what decision was that? In 1979?

$ echo $(( 2019 - 40 ))
1979

But GNU is from 1983, and Linux from 1991. [1]


[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/COMP-HIST

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> From 1985 to 2010 (give or take a few years
> and discounting Java and some other modern
> language) Emacs was the best programmer's
> editor on the "by hackers, for hackers"
> category. I suppose that most current users
> come from that period.

I started using Emacs somewhere around
2011-06-11. Because I knew I did another thing
then, with either nano or Emacs. So either
I stopped using nano then, or I begun using
Emacs then ... (wait, that didn't make
any sense!)

So obviously, it pleases me, with your
give-or-take-a-few-years play, I am included in
the period! Even then, my hacker intuition
was impacable!

Now... "Emacs was the best programmer's editor
on the 'by hackers, for hackers' category" -

1) When did this stop, give or take
   a few years?

2) What editors/IDEs pushed Emacs down
   the ladder?

3) Is it possible to summarize in three or four
   sentences, what they offer that we lack?
   Factorization, and instead of just basic
   modes for a programming language P, tons of
   features and helpers for that particular
   language, is what I've heard so far.
   That doesn't sound so impressive - but it
   might just be, or there's more.

Now two other questions:

1) Are we, or are we not counting Emacs-w3m,
   Gnus, ERC, the shell, [M]ELPA, the
   man pages, the file system (Dired), and
   everything else I've mentioned many times by
   now?

   Or do the other editors provide that as well
   - in different forms, of course?

   They don't, right? So we are actually not
   counting huge parts of Emacs, when we
   compare Emacs to other editors? Parts that
   are actually really beneficial when
   writing programs?

2) Do the other editors support tons of
   languages, like Emacs does, and not just the
   Emacs favorites like Lisp but Cobol, Pascal,
   ML, seekwell, LaTeX, zsh, and so on? As well
   as all the configuration modes?

   Or are they just better, perhaps much
   better, at one or two or three languages,
   e.g. C++ or C#/VB(A)/MS SQL Server?

> Maybe, just maybe, having "kill & yank"
> instead "copy & paste" is not the cause of
> Emacs' lack of appeal to the new generations.

Of course it isn't.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

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On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:28:00AM +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> 
> 
> > On May 17, 2019, at 5:50, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > 
> >> so we need to offer some advantage on the first
> >> try over the others to keep the users.
> > 
> > Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you
> > experience them. That's a problem for people grown on a culture of
> > instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who
> > understand that gains require efforts.
> 
> I find that comment extremely condescending.
> 
> If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one can get started right away, then I'm all for it.
> 
> Considering the state of affairs, emacs seems first to appeal to people who want to give priority to free software, at the *cost* of ease of use.

Condescending seems to go both ways, mind you.

> Access to free software should never be the sole privilege of "users who understand that gains require efforts". Quite the opposite.

Fully agreed here.

> > The really big problem is that Emacs no longer compete on areas were it used to bring the largest gains. Other editors largely surpassed Emacs' gains while requiring less effort.
> 
> Eli earlier clearly identified a number of areas where emacs required huge and totally undue efforts to get the thing to work as expected in the 21st century. 

Yes, and to achieve that, we gotta work together. It doesn't help
to insinuate intentions as you did above ;-)

Point is -- perhaps there's a tradeoff between initial ease-of-use
efficient for experienced users and the way from "here" to "there"?

Perhaps it takes more effort to come up with a software which is
good at all three departments?

I'm convinced that conventional software has promoted patterns which
tend to keep users in dependency (much more so in the Web "application"
space[1], because there it's strategic for your business), and that
those patterns infiltrate our way of seeing things -- therefore they
end up in free software too, for no reason.

Cheers

[1] Actually, those have names, like, e.g. Dark Patterns
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern

-- tomás

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:

>> Emacs provides some advantages, but they are
>> not apparent until you experience them.
>> That's a problem for people grown on
>> a culture of instant gratification.
>> Emacs appeals to certain type of users who
>> understand that gains require efforts.
>
> I find that comment extremely condescending.

Well, maybe not "extremely", but as I said many
times by now, little faith seems to be put in
people coming to Emacs for the first time.

Actually so little, one might start to suspect
we ourselves are very unhappy with our
current state!

Hint: Just change the initial config so it
looks good (cool)! ~Half the problem with
newcomers is solved right there.

> If "instant gratification" means finding
> a common ground on which one can get started
> right away, then I'm all for it.

It doesn't mean that.

> Considering the state of affairs, emacs seems
> first to appeal to people who want to give
> priority to free software, at the *cost* of
> ease of use.

*laughter*

I can assure you I could barely spell to
free software when I started to use Emacs and
the political aspects were totally irrelevant.

There was no "cost". It was just a cool program
and I wanted to do more and more with it.
And that's exactly what happened.

Why this can't happen to a newcomers, some guy
or girl around the world starting Emacs for the
first time _today_, why this cannot happen to
him or her as well I don't understand.
Please enlighten me! Why can't it happen?
What's the difference?

> Access to free software should never be the
> sole privilege of "users who understand that
> gains require efforts". Quite the opposite.

... :) ?

> Eli earlier clearly identified a number of
> areas where emacs required huge and totally
> undue efforts to get the thing to work as
> expected in the 21st century.

Oh, no! More efforts! And huge at that!
And what will happen after those efforts?
Will we then win? Editor Champions of
the World?

Stop it. Or continue, rather. The journey _is_
the goal!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 16.05.2019 23:50, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you
> experience them. That's a problem for people grown on a culture of
> instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who
> understand that gains require efforts.

I strongly disagree: as somebody who like instant gratification, I see 
that Emacs provides significant advantages to us: fast ability to see 
how it works and why, to change its behavior in an instance, to 
experiment without recompiling/restarting/whatever.

Whose are the things that VS Code and friends do not provide. Vim 
neither, not to the same extent.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 16.05.2019 23:50, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
>> Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you
>> experience them. That's a problem for people grown on a culture of
>> instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who
>> understand that gains require efforts.
>
> I strongly disagree: as somebody who like instant gratification, I see
> that Emacs provides significant advantages to us: fast ability to see
> how it works and why, to change its behavior in an instance, to
> experiment without recompiling/restarting/whatever.

But that type of instant gratification require previous effort (learning
that doing those things is possible, to begin with.) The instant
gratification that I refer to consists on installing the éditeur de
texte du jour, "oh, looks nice", poke it for a minute and decide that it
is okay for you and be happy thereafter, or until you eventually become
tired/annoyed enough and then select a replacement by the same criteria.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 17.05.2019 18:22, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> But that type of instant gratification require previous effort (learning
> that doing those things is possible, to begin with.)

Still, that doesn't mean that we're free from making the amount of 
effort this takes arbitrarily hard, or that we shouldn't make it easier 
when possible.

> The instant
> gratification that I refer to consists on installing the éditeur de
> texte du jour, "oh, looks nice", poke it for a minute and decide that it
> is okay for you and be happy thereafter, or until you eventually become
> tired/annoyed enough and then select a replacement by the same criteria.

That seems like a strawman. A lot of smart, thoughtful professionals use 
other editors as well.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 17.05.2019 18:22, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
>> But that type of instant gratification require previous effort (learning
>> that doing those things is possible, to begin with.)
>
> Still, that doesn't mean that we're free from making the amount of
> effort this takes arbitrarily hard, or that we shouldn't make it
> easier when possible.

Sure.

>> The instant
>> gratification that I refer to consists on installing the éditeur de
>> texte du jour, "oh, looks nice", poke it for a minute and decide that it
>> is okay for you and be happy thereafter, or until you eventually become
>> tired/annoyed enough and then select a replacement by the same criteria.
>
> That seems like a strawman. A lot of smart, thoughtful professionals
> use other editors as well.

That's true. It is also true that most people who work with keyboards
don't do a thorough research and then use the best... they just go for
what's at hand, with bad consequences 20 years down the path.

See, I'm not saying that Emacs is perfect or the users of other editors
are lazy fools or wathever, I'm just saying that converging towards
popular editors is not good per se. I started with Borland IDEs, then
Visual Studio and recently Android Studio. No matter their popularity,
they are rudimentary editors compared to Emacs.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> See, I'm not saying that Emacs is perfect or
> the users of other editors are lazy fools or
> wathever, I'm just saying that converging
> towards popular editors is not good per se.
> I started with Borland IDEs, then Visual
> Studio [...] No matter their popularity, they
> are rudimentary editors compared to Emacs.

Ah, right!

Borland and Visual Studio!

But that was a long time ago! We are not
comparing us now, with them then, right?

(Not that I doubt Emacs was better even then,
of course.)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Dmitry Gutov wrote:

> A lot of smart, thoughtful professionals use
> other editors as well.

I'm sure you're right, but again, what editors
are those?

I'd like to try them as well :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> The instant gratification that I refer to
> consists on installing the éditeur de texte
> du jour, "oh, looks nice", poke it for
> a minute and decide that it is okay for you
> and be happy thereafter, or until you
> eventually become tired/annoyed enough and
> then select a replacement by the
> same criteria.

Yes, I think that is like the definition of the
"instant gratification" mindset :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Dmitry Gutov wrote:

> I strongly disagree: as somebody who like
> instant gratification, I see that Emacs
> provides significant advantages to us: fast
> ability to see how it works and why, to
> change its behavior in an instance, to
> experiment without
> recompiling/restarting/whatever.

Interesting...

Perhaps many, if not most people like their
gratification instantly, it is rather the
gratification in particular that differs?

This

> change its behavior in an instance, to
> experiment without
> recompiling/restarting/whatever.

also appealed to me in a huge way BTW.
And I think that appeal came pretty instantly.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

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On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 10:50:45PM +0200, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> Can't resist on commenting two points:
> 
> Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> writes:
> 
> > 3) The development is not focused in the first thing that a user needs
> > when she opens emacs: provide the most comfortable and useful TEXT
> > EDITOR.
> 
> For many people this is Notepad.

+1 :-)

> > If emacs as TEXT EDITOR does not convince them (just the first try,
> > without config, without reading the manual/tutorial/documentation), then
> > they will not even try any other functionality.
> 
> Indeed, Emacs has a non-negligible learning curve. Other editors do a
> lot out of the box in a familiar way [...]

Yes.

I've been in this software business for 30+ years, and with the arrival
of "commodity computing", I've observed a strong anti-pattern: designs
tend to cater to the buyer and not to the user.

I'll explain: If you decide which product to "buy", you haven't the
time/resources to become proficient with that product: you decide on
first impressions. But once you use that product for years, you'll
"need" other features, which perhaps don't stick out at first sight.

There are two mechanisms pushing that anti-pattern forward:

1. In bigger corporations those taking the decision which software
  to "buy" (usually in the monetary sense) won't be those
  paid (and thus more or less blackmailed) to use it. Management
  goes "oh, shiny" and workers go "oh, no!".

2. In general, when you personally "buy" a piece of software
  (in the monetary, or in the general sense), you often have
  no idea on what you need, so you go "oh shiny" again, and
  sink considerable effort into fine-tuning your interface to
  that software. Re-tuning is so expensive that you better not
  think of it (as a long-time vi user, I mostly moved to Emacs
  about ten years ago: it /was/ expensive.

Cheers

[1] "buy" in a very general sense: it might cost money or not,
   but it'll cost learning, dedication and commitment.
-- t

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RE: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Drew Adams]

> I've been in this software business for 30+ years, and with the arrival
> of "commodity computing", I've observed a strong anti-pattern: designs
> tend to cater to the buyer and not to the user.
> 
> I'll explain: If you decide which product to "buy", you haven't the
> time/resources to become proficient with that product: you decide on
> first impressions. But once you use that product for years, you'll
> "need" other features, which perhaps don't stick out at first sight.
> 
> There are two mechanisms pushing that anti-pattern forward:
> 
> 1. In bigger corporations those taking the decision which software
>   to "buy" (usually in the monetary sense) won't be those
>   paid (and thus more or less blackmailed) to use it. Management
>   goes "oh, shiny" and workers go "oh, no!".
> 
> 2. In general, when you personally "buy" a piece of software
>   (in the monetary, or in the general sense), you often have
>   no idea on what you need, so you go "oh shiny" again, and
>   sink considerable effort into fine-tuning your interface to
>   that software. Re-tuning is so expensive that you better not
>   think of it (as a long-time vi user, I mostly moved to Emacs
>   about ten years ago: it /was/ expensive.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> [1] "buy" in a very general sense: it might cost money or not,
>    but it'll cost learning, dedication and commitment.

And in a later msg:

> I'm convinced that conventional software has promoted patterns
> which tend to keep users in dependency (much more so in the Web
> "application" space[1], because there it's strategic for your
> business), and that those patterns infiltrate our way of seeing
> things -- therefore they end up in free software too, for no reason.

+1000.  Thank you for putting it so clearly.

user != chooser

Of course users may first choose.  But they also must then use.
Design for choosers ("sales" in some sense) is not, in itself,
design for users and use.

OTOH, a bazaar does have this advantage over a cathedral:
masses of user/developers attracted (in whatever way initially
- click-bait/"oh-shiny" or not) do sometimes improve a thing
that might have started out rudimentary or poorly designed.

Do Photoshop developers spend a huge amount of their energy
worrying about dumbing it down to commodity-sell it to every
Joe & Jane?  There may be some of that, but I doubt that it
is a strong/main consideration for the product design, in
particular for making the product as usable, useful, and
powerful as possible.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Drew Adams wrote:

> OTOH, a bazaar does have this advantage over
> a cathedral: masses of user/developers
> attracted (in whatever way initially -
> click-bait/"oh-shiny" or not) do sometimes
> improve a thing that might have started out
> rudimentary or poorly designed.

The bazaar is (or has been at least) far
superior to the cathedral but that is a general
statement/observation.

If newcomers to Emacs think it looks unsexy and
that it lacks IDE features, and no one in the
Emacs community does anything about it (save
for the unsexy thing, which they do at their
own desks and dont propagate save for a random
theme on MELPA no one cares to install let
alone bring in as the new standard) then no, to
Emacs and in the unsexy/IDE case it doesn't
matter how much superior the bazaar model in
general is.

But then the question is, why do the Emacs
people act this way? To make Emacs look good
isn't difficult. But the IDE thing? The reason
it hasn't happened is it is to difficult for
the layman Emacs Elisp hacker, and those who
could possibly pull it off are either to busy
with other things or thinks it is too big
a commitment to do on a voluntary-basis?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Óscar Fuentes wrote:

> The really big problem is that Emacs no
> longer compete on areas were it used to bring
> the largest gains. Other editors largely
> surpassed Emacs' gains while requiring
> less effort.

:)

Big problem!

Perhaps time to be content that Emacs appeals
to certain users, and will do so even in
the future.

I guess in particular those who are appealed to
Lisp and those who look for a one-program
interface to the whole computer, and those who
enjoy and have time to do endless tweaking with
their software and want to be able to do so in
an easy and unified way...

And if it doesn't, well nothing lasts forever.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Xavier Maillard]

> Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 16:30:05 +0200
> From: Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> 
> > The really big problem is that Emacs no
> > longer compete on areas were it used to bring
> > the largest gains. Other editors largely
> > surpassed Emacs' gains while requiring
> > less effort.
> 
> :)
> 
> Big problem!

GNU Emacs has no need to be competitive IMO. As I am okay living right
into emacs buffers, I do not need to compare it with competitors.

YMMV.

> I guess in particular those who are appealed to
> Lisp and those who look for a one-program
> interface to the whole computer, and those who
> enjoy and have time to do endless tweaking with
> their software and want to be able to do so in
> an easy and unified way...

I, for years, constantly was tweaking my .emacs for hours and
hours. As to my surprise, I did not get the job done ;) THat was quite
fun but, in the end, that was pretty conter-productive.

My new mantra: resist to the extension appeal ! Limit yourself to the
bare minimum. Surprinsingly, it works.

I doubt powerusers have tons of them installed and worst, I even doubt
their .emacs are huge. That's why having good default and stick with
them is so important and thus, having stable standards is so important
to old men like me ;)

-- 
Xavier Maillard                      
e/j:xavier@maillard.im                w:www.maillard.im
m: 06 52 18 63 43 (old)
m: 06 49 60 48 56 (NEW)

GPG:                           9983 DCA1 1FAC 8DA7 653A
                               F9AA BA49 09B7 8F04 DE1B

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Xavier Maillard wrote:

> GNU Emacs has no need to be competitive IMO.
> As I am okay living right into emacs buffers,
> I do not need to compare it with competitors.

Me neither.

> I, for years, constantly was tweaking my
> .emacs for hours and hours. As to my
> surprise, I did not get the job done ;) THat
> was quite fun but, in the end, that was
> pretty conter-productive.

Same for me, only I'm not sure if I really had
done anything better had I not done it.
Maybe I'd have done 20 or so "would have been
the next Quake" only none were ever finished.
The stuff I did with Emacs at least I use every
day, it was/is fun to do, and I take happiness
and pride from that, and productivity as well,
when I do real projects - those have become
fewer and farther in-between tho, but I don't
blame Elisp for this.

> I doubt powerusers have tons of them
> installed and worst, I even doubt their
> .emacs are huge. [...]

It depends what the definition of poweruser is.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 22:23:27 +0200
> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> My point of view since the beginning of my first email ever in the
> mailing list was based in 3 things:
> 
> 1) Some design choices and limitations in the actual emacs were imposed
> due to technology 40 years ago. (keyboard bindings, coding system,
> screen resolutions, memory available and CPU, network latency, storage
> capacity) but most of them are not issues anymore (at least not in the
> emacs scales) so we are limiting the potential of emacs due to issues
> that disappeared long time ago.
> 
> 2) Many new features and functionalities (pure editing oriented) have
> been introduced/proved/improved in other editors, and they have proven
> to be useful (move line, initial configuration, associative bindings,
> specific key combinations like in cua-mode, undo/redo and many
> others).
> 
> An important part of those functionalities are can be implemented with
> Elisp in one afternoon probably because they are just details and some
> are already available as external packages, but the changes never arrive
> because there are not available (practical) keybindings or because of
> backward compatibility.

It is very hard to discuss this stuff in a useful manner when your
arguments are so abstract.  In general, the (alleged) reason for the
current defaults to be rooted in some obsolete technology, if that
indeed is the case, doesn't necessarily mean those defaults are
invalid today.  The discussion of the defaults should be on a case by
case basis.  I can assure you that if the _only_ reason for having a
default is that alternatives don't work well on obsolete systems,
there's no chance in the world someone will be reasonably against
changing them.  IME, usually there are other significant reasons, such
as incompatibility with Emacs conventions, disruption of keyboard-only
workflows, etc.

OTOH, many, if not all of the features you say were proven in other
editors we already provide in Emacs.  If you are saying it took too
long for Emacs to adopt them, then this is an argument about the past,
which is again not useful IME.

So if you want to have a useful discussion about these matters, I
suggest to come up with specific contemporary examples of features
that illustrate your POV.  Otherwise, these just empty slogans for me,
sorry.

> 3) The development is not focused in the first thing that a user needs
> when she opens emacs: provide the most comfortable and useful TEXT
> EDITOR.

Since you didn't say what TEXT EDITOR should entail, it is again very
hard to discuss this claim.  From my POV, we do provide a text editor
OOB: you have the usual arrow keys, PgUp/PgDn, copy/paste by mouse, a
menu bar and a tool bar with items most users will expect, scroll
bars, simple edit commands like delete-char bound to keys users expect
them to be, F1 for Help, RET which indents when appropriate, etc.

If you are saying that these basic features are not enough, then a
useful start would be to come up with a list of additional features
that new users are looking for (but please don't try to make your
point by deliberately making a list of features we don't have; this
list should be the result of either polling users or some kind of
survey of popular text editors).  We could then discuss their
introduction into Emacs in an intelligent way.

> If emacs as TEXT EDITOR does not convince them (just the first try,
> without config, without reading the manual/tutorial/documentation), then
> they will not even try any other functionality. I think that you are one
> of the few in this list who sees the importance if attracting new
> users/developers.

We will not attract new users by providing just a text editor.  There
are way too many of them out there, and it's very hard, to say the
least, to be significantly better just in that class.  We must find
our own niches, and be one of the top players in those niches.  One of
those niches should IMO be multi-language IDEs, but there are others.

> For example, many people use nano just because the basic actions are in
> a button bar, so they don't get stocked and they can do the basic stuff
> quick and fast, no installation no config needed.

Emacs has the same.

> Look at the spacemacs community and how many members are there wrapping
> emacs functionalities to behave like in vim...

Doesn't prove anything to me, sorry.  People who like spacemacs should
be free to use spacemacs, but it tells nothing about those who don't,
of whom there's quite a large number, AFAIU.

> >Personally, I wish people would invest much more time and efforts in
> >adding new features, and would stop futzing with existing features.
> >For starters, the former is much more useful for our users than the
> >latter.  Also, I see many times how a change in existing code to make
> >some minor improvement introduces bugs, which sometimes are more
> >significant than the "fixed" problem -- this is expected in a complex
> >stable program, and is a clear sign that changes of existing code long
> >since entered the area which engineers call "the limit cycle" --
> >oscillations that don't converge, i.e. the overall code quality is
> >quasi-constant.  IOW, we are wasting our own resources for little or
> >no gain.
> >
> I would support that the functionalities go in elpa (I say elpa because
> it won't need an initial configuration to be used, just list-packages
> and install).

Before we decide where the functionality will go, we should have it in
the first place.  It currently doesn't exist anywhere.  That's the
main problem; the location of the packages is secondary.

> Also improve the modules API and support to create packages with C as
> with elisp.

The main IDE features cannot be implemented in modules.  They can use
some external support functionality via the module interface, but the
features themselves must be in Lisp.  We don't even have a coherent
framework for such features at this time.  CEDET was supposed to be
it, but judging by the fact that no one is developing it, and, on the
contrary, what little development we have in the IDE area is bypassing
CEDET, I'm beginning to think that maybe that decision was a de-facto
mistake.

> >> Just give a look how many good packages are in melpa, but not in elpa
> >
> >If you are saying that those packages are in MELPA because they were
> >rejected to be included in Emacs or ELPA, then I'd be very surprised
> >to learn that this is true.  I think the vast majority of those
> >packages started up with MELPA and their developers never tried to
> >submit the packages to be included in Emacs.
> >
> No, I am saying that there is a reason why they made their work, and
> they maintain it, but they don't spend time to put it in the official
> repository.

People are welcome to scan MELPA packages and suggest to their
developers to submit them to Emacs.  If indeed the reason is what you
say (and I sincerely doubt that), we will have many of them in
Emacs/ELPA in no time.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> OTOH, many, if not all of the features you
> say were proven in other editors we already
> provide in Emacs. If you are saying it took
> too long for Emacs to adopt them, then this
> is an argument about the past, which is again
> not useful IME.

That's exactly right: the past is the past and
nothing can be done about it. The future will
come when it comes, no doubt. So only the
present is up for grabs! So get as good and
meaningful a grip as you can, I'd say.

> We will not attract new users by providing
> just a text editor. There are way too many of
> them out there, and it's very hard, to say
> the least, to be significantly better just in
> that class. We must find our own niches, and
> be one of the top players in those niches.

But: we have already found our own niche, and
that is to be *everything*. This explains why
we aren't the best at every little programming
language out there. That would mean to be
superhuman - which (except for the X-Men)
is impossible.

> It is very hard to discuss this stuff in
> a useful manner when your arguments are so
> abstract. In general, the (alleged) reason
> for the current defaults to be rooted in some
> obsolete technology, if that indeed is the
> case, doesn't necessarily mean those defaults
> are invalid today. The discussion of the
> defaults should be on a case by case basis.

It is much easier that way, most definitely.

> [...] disruption of keyboard-only
> workflows, etc.

And that in particular we never want
to disrupt! :)

> Since you didn't say what TEXT EDITOR should
> entail, it is again very hard to discuss this
> claim. From my POV, we do provide a text
> editor OOB: you have the usual arrow keys,
> PgUp/PgDn, copy/paste by mouse, a menu bar
> and a tool bar with items most users will
> expect, scroll bars, simple edit commands
> like delete-char bound to keys users expect
> them to be, F1 for Help, RET which indents
> when appropriate, etc.

...? Is this the definition of a text editor?
If so, perhaps we should come up with another
category name for Emacs...

> The main IDE features cannot be implemented
> in modules. They can use some external
> support functionality via the module
> interface, but the features themselves must
> be in Lisp.

...? Cannot there be Lisp modules? What
"module interface" or type of module are we
talking, exactly?

> We don't even have a coherent framework for
> such features at this time. CEDET was
> supposed to be it, but judging by the fact
> that no one is developing it, and, on the
> contrary, what little development we have in
> the IDE area is bypassing CEDET, I'm
> beginning to think that maybe that decision
> was a de-facto mistake.

CEDET - ah, yes, I've heard of that (now).
It means "Collection of Emacs Development
Environment Tools" [1]

> People are welcome to scan MELPA packages and
> suggest to their developers to submit them to
> Emacs.

Shouldn't stuff from MELPA be moved to ELPA
first before it is moved into Emacs? :)


[1] http://cedet.sourceforge.net

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Ergus wrote:

> 2) Many new features and functionalities
> (pure editing oriented) have been
> introduced/proved/improved in other editors,
> and they have proven to be useful (move line,
> initial configuration, associative bindings,
> specific key combinations like in cua-mode,
> undo/redo and many others).

I don't know what "move line" or "associative
bindings" are ... but if it is just about
editing and keyboard-to-function behavior, I'm
pretty sure we have it.

As for `cua-mode', even I have that, and
I don't want it, so it must be there to
begin with.

But I do agree the initial config is very
unsexy. Especially the GUI Emacs looks awful
out of the box, to be honest. Obviously you can
get rid of all that stuff easily enough, then
get a bright-on-black theme with a more radical
syntax highlighting, have the cursor stop
blinking, and a couple of other things I don't
remember right now. That's a good start and
should greatly improve the first impression.
I don't know why it isn't like this to
begin with.

> 3) The development is not focused in the
> first thing that a user needs when she opens
> emacs: provide the most comfortable and
> useful TEXT EDITOR.

Emacs is an interface/tool to operate the
_entire computer_. Stop thinking of it as
a text editor only. It isn't true - far from it
- so I don't know why you do it. And it will
never happen, no matter what you or anyone else
say in CAPITAL LETTERS. The only way it will
happen if you fork it and remove tons and tons
of useful code. You can do that, of course.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[조성빈 via help-gnu-emacs]

Oops, I sent this as a personal mail first :-(
Resent...

2019. 5. 25. 오후 5:22, Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 작성:

> Ergus wrote:
> 
>> 2) Many new features and functionalities
>> (pure editing oriented) have been
>> introduced/proved/improved in other editors,
>> and they have proven to be useful (move line,
>> initial configuration, associative bindings,
>> specific key combinations like in cua-mode,
>> undo/redo and many others).
> 
> I don't know what "move line" or "associative
> bindings" are ... but if it is just about
> editing and keyboard-to-function behavior, I'm
> pretty sure we have it.
> 
> As for `cua-mode', even I have that, and
> I don't want it, so it must be there to
> begin with.
> 
> But I do agree the initial config is very
> unsexy. Especially the GUI Emacs looks awful
> out of the box, to be honest. Obviously you can
> get rid of all that stuff easily enough, then
> get a bright-on-black theme with a more radical
> syntax highlighting, have the cursor stop
> blinking, and a couple of other things I don't
> remember right now. That's a good start and
> should greatly improve the first impression.
> I don't know why it isn't like this to
> begin with.

This is so true... Why is the defaults so bad?̊̈
Just having a default theme will be much better...

>> 3) The development is not focused in the
>> first thing that a user needs when she opens
>> emacs: provide the most comfortable and
>> useful TEXT EDITOR.
> 
> Emacs is an interface/tool to operate the
> _entire computer_. Stop thinking of it as
> a text editor only. It isn't true - far from it
> - so I don't know why you do it. And it will
> never happen, no matter what you or anyone else
> say in CAPITAL LETTERS. The only way it will
> happen if you fork it and remove tons and tons
> of useful code. You can do that, of course.

I would say, Emacs is an tool that abstracts operating a computer into text editing; which makes text-editing capabilities one of the most important part of Emacs. Text editing is *the* interface of the tool, Emacs.

> -- 
> underground experts united
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
> 
> 

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Emacs is an old program, with users who stay
> with it for 25 and more years. Changing old
> defaults or making other incompatible changes
> definitely annoys at least some of those
> users, especially since quite a few people
> don't track the development, and don't see
> the changes until years later, sometimes even
> after skipping several releases in-between.
> This isn't theory, this is our (and my
> personal) actual experience from watching
> Emacs development. When someone comes up and
> asks why we made a certain change in how
> Emacs worked for decades, we should have
> a good reason, and if we don't, we shouldn't
> make the change "just because we can".
> That's the price of maintaining and
> developing an old and stable program.
>
> Personally, I wish people would invest much
> more time and efforts in adding new features,
> and would stop futzing with existing
> features. For starters, the former is much
> more useful for our users than the latter.
> Also, I see many times how a change in
> existing code to make some minor improvement
> introduces bugs, which sometimes are more
> significant than the "fixed" problem -- this
> is expected in a complex stable program, and
> is a clear sign that changes of existing code
> long since entered the area which engineers
> call "the limit cycle" -- oscillations that
> don't converge, i.e. the overall code quality
> is quasi-constant. IOW, we are wasting our
> own resources for little or no gain.

This is all true, not just with Emacs but
with everything.

Fiddle with details up to a point, then stop.

Obey tradition. What has worked will work and
there is no reason to fix it for the sake of
it, for esthetical reasons or to make it
more modern. If it ain't broke etc.

If you want to be a radical, do new stuff and
add them next to the old stuff. Then have
users, including yourself, decide what to use
and when.

This is so much more the right and easy thing
to do in a computer program!

While in a bike repair shop for example, there
are almost always practical considerations that
are much worse to deal with. If you acquire
a new machine or piece of equipment (a bench
grinder, truing stand, or whatever), you can't
just put it at the optimal place because there
are already a bunch of other stuff there!
The new stuff may be better in 9/10 cases, but
what about the 10th case? Also, the old stuff,
everyone knows how to use, so for some time, it
will still be better in practice!

With a computer program, you don't have to deal
with such issues. Just add more great stuff
whenever possible, w/o removing any of the old
that 1) works and 2) is useful!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> We are far from becoming a toxic community,
>> but new/different ideas are not really very
>> welcome and sometimes the arguments are like
>> "it has always been like that", "old users
>> don't want that change".
>
> Really? You've just went through a process of
> proposing and implementing a new feature --
> did you feel your idea was "not really
> welcome"?
>
>> The conservative attitude in emacs
>> development group (apart from the technical
>> obstacles like the workflow and the
>> paperwork and so on) gives the idea of
>> a closed environment (that actually it is
>> from the development point of view because
>> we are like frozen in the past) where only
>> very experts are welcome (that's the vision
>> people have from outside) so very few melpa
>> developers are really interested to face all
>> those issues to contribute.
>
> Is this your experience from implementing the
> fill-column indicator? If so, how do you
> explain that you, as a relative non-expert,
> were welcome in that case?

I think the tone of this very reply confirms he
is right.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 06:42:06 +0200
> From: Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> I think the tone of this very reply confirms he
> is right.

What "tone" is that?  Those were simple questions, asked in good
faith, using polite wording.  I quite clearly disagree with the
opinion that "new/different ideas are not really very welcome", but
disagreement should not be taken as bad attitude, especially when
backed up by facts.  Disagreement and its expressions are legitimate
in discussions, and serve an important purpose of helping to approach
the truth by mentioning different aspects and POVs.

On the contrary, claims such as yours are IMO harming the discussions
because they make people think twice before posting their legitimate
opinions, lest they will be accused of having a "tone".

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> I think the tone of this very reply confirms
>> he is right.
>
> What "tone" is that?

Monotone and haughty.

> On the contrary, claims such as yours are IMO
> harming the discussions because they make
> people think twice before posting their
> legitimate opinions, lest they will be
> accused of having a "tone".

It's a good thing then you come to their
defense, then, so they dare voice their minds
without fear.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 20:34:30 +0200
> From: Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> I think the tone of this very reply confirms
> >> he is right.
> >
> > What "tone" is that?
> 
> Monotone and haughty.

It was none of that.  They were simple and polite words.  I suggest
you ask a friend to give you a second opinion about that.

> > On the contrary, claims such as yours are IMO
> > harming the discussions because they make
> > people think twice before posting their
> > legitimate opinions, lest they will be
> > accused of having a "tone".
> 
> It's a good thing then you come to their
> defense, then, so they dare voice their minds
> without fear.

People should be free to speak their minds without requiring any
"defense".

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg]

Ergus wrote:

> We are far from becoming a toxic community,
> but new/different ideas are not really very
> welcome and sometimes the arguments are like
> "it has always been like that", "old users
> don't want that change".
>
> The conservative attitude in emacs
> development group (apart from the technical
> obstacles like the workflow and the paperwork
> and so on) gives the idea of a closed
> environment (that actually it is from the
> development point of view because we are like
> frozen in the past) where only very experts
> are welcome (that's the vision people have
> from outside) so very few melpa developers
> are really interested to face all those
> issues to contribute.

While I don't like quotes that aren't actual
quotes (e.g., who exactly said "it has always
been like that"? NB rhetorical question) -
again, while I don't like that sort'a stuff,
I *do* have to agree I get this/your general
vibe as well!

I don't consider myself an Emacs expert - far
from it. But I've been here for 10+ years, so
I'm happy with my Emacs and my skill level.

But this place still doesn't feel like home!
That is strange.

I'm not sure your analysis is correct why this
is tho, but heck, it might be, or part of it
at least.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Van L]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> Ergus wrote:
> I don't consider myself an Emacs expert -
> far from it. But I've been here for 10+
> years, so I'm happy with my Emacs and my
> skill level.  But this place still
> doesn't feel like home!  That is strange.

Is it possible to have the best of all possible
worlds?

For conservatives, a winter release of old gold keybindings.
For the free radicals, a spring release with modernizations.

When I use a long M-x sequence, a shortcut suggestion appears. It disappears before I can catch it. Can it stay for 30 seconds? Can there be an instant interactive override to set it whatever you like? Evolutionary programming of popular custom keybindings collected at upstream and put thru obstacle course competition is one way of composing a spring release.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
                             "The interface is a nightmare." - Brendan Schaub

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[조성빈]

2019. 5. 19. 오후 5:16, Van L <van@scratch.space> 작성:

> Emanuel Berg writes:
> 
>> Ergus wrote:
>> I don't consider myself an Emacs expert -
>> far from it. But I've been here for 10+
>> years, so I'm happy with my Emacs and my
>> skill level.  But this place still
>> doesn't feel like home!  That is strange.
> 
> Is it possible to have the best of all possible
> worlds?
> 
> For conservatives, a winter release of old gold keybindings.
> For the free radicals, a spring release with modernizations.

What if having a compatibility-mode that can be activated by something like:
```elisp
(classic-keybindings-mode 1)
```
and refine the default keybindings to be more consistent/mnemonic? People who miss the old keybindings will be elisp-proficient; Adding 1 s-exp to the init file won’t be a barrier.
For the refined keybindings, Spacemacs can provide a good starting point.

> When I use a long M-x sequence, a shortcut suggestion appears. It disappears before I can catch it. Can it stay for 30 seconds? Can there be an instant interactive override to set it whatever you like?

I would like a semi-AI that suggests interactive functions based on key presses or actions the user performs... `You can use C-e (goto-end-line) to perform 12 keystokes you performed.'
Saying about discoverability, I would like a context-sensitive right-click mouse menu, something like Microsoft Office. Most newcomers are familiar with finding functionality with the mouse; and it isn’t intuitive to find new keybindings/functions that Emacs provide to boost productivity. (Actually, that’s one of my problems; how should I find new functions...?)

> Evolutionary programming of popular custom keybindings collected at upstream and put thru obstacle course competition is one way of composing a spring release.
> 
> -- 
> © 2019 Van L
> gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
>                             "The interface is a nightmare." - Brendan Schaub
> 

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Van L]

조성빈 <pcr910303@icloud.com> writes:

> 2019. 5. 19. 오후 5:16, Van L <van@scratch.space> 작성:
>
> For the refined keybindings, Spacemacs can provide a good starting point.

A bikeshedding of well worn paths of keybinding combinations is required
to justify the new starting point.

> I would like a semi-AI that suggests interactive functions based on

Maybe helm or ivy package does that.

> it isn’t intuitive to find new keybindings/functions that Emacs

One way is `C-h b' and think differently.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
                             "The interface is a nightmare." - Brendan Schaub

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 10:48:26PM +1000, Van L wrote:
>조성빈 <pcr910303@icloud.com> writes:
>
>> 2019. 5. 19. 오후 5:16, Van L <van@scratch.space> 작성:
>>
>> For the refined keybindings, Spacemacs can provide a good starting point.
>
>A bikeshedding of well worn paths of keybinding combinations is required
>to justify the new starting point.
>

Actual spacemacs keybindings are based in mode editing ideas, so we
can't use them as they are OOB, but the concepts and ideas they use to
organize the bindings are very interesting and intuitive.

>
>> I would like a semi-AI that suggests interactive functions based on
>
>Maybe helm or ivy package does that.
>
>> it isn’t intuitive to find new keybindings/functions that Emacs
>
>One way is `C-h b' and think differently.
>
There is which-key. I can't recommend it enough to new users. I knew
about it very late (after 2 years or so) but, for starters, the learning
curve with it could be way easier.

>-- 
>© 2019 Van L
>gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
>                             "The interface is a nightmare." - Brendan Schaub
>
>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Ergus wrote:

> There is which-key.

... where? :S

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 07:35:58PM +0900, 조성빈 wrote:
>
>2019. 5. 19. 오후 5:16, Van L <van@scratch.space> 작성:
>
>> Emanuel Berg writes:
>>
>>> Ergus wrote:
>>> I don't consider myself an Emacs expert -
>>> far from it. But I've been here for 10+
>>> years, so I'm happy with my Emacs and my
>>> skill level.  But this place still
>>> doesn't feel like home!  That is strange.
>>
>> Is it possible to have the best of all possible
>> worlds?
>>
>> For conservatives, a winter release of old gold keybindings.
>> For the free radicals, a spring release with modernizations.
>
>What if having a compatibility-mode that can be activated by something like:
>```elisp
>(classic-keybindings-mode 1)
>```
>and refine the default keybindings to be more consistent/mnemonic? People who miss the old keybindings will be elisp-proficient; Adding 1 s-exp to the init file won’t be a barrier.
>For the refined keybindings, Spacemacs can provide a good starting point.
>
This is interesting. (of course spacemacs not in evil mode).

I will just tell an idea I had (before knowing how things work in emacs,
I actually thought it was implemented in that way)

If we create a single file with the full list of general bindings as
variables for all the main modes like

;; Basics

C-a begin-line-binding
C-e end-line-binding 
C-b go-backward-line-binding 
C-d delete-forward-binding
...

;; Prog mode
C-c C-c whatever-you-decide-binding

;; Minibuffer mode
bla bla bla
...

And so on.

All the derived modes can be changed to use the variables instead of
hard-code the bindings in multiple files.

this:
(define-key c-mode-base-map "\C-d" 'c-delete-forward)
will be:
(define-key c-mode-base-map delete-forward-binding 'c-delete-forward)

This is similar to use remap, but with some advantages:

1) The bindings will be organized in a single file and the collisions
will be exposed easily. And fixed for all of them.

2) In case a mode adds a new functionality and it needs a binding, it t
in the global map, it will be clear if some others already have a
similar one and will bind to the same using the same criteria. If the
binding has never been used, it will be added to the list for future
modes that wants the same functionality.

3) Old users will be minimally affected because the starting criteria
are the actual bindings.

4) Implementation of test modes (like ergoemacs or evil-mode) and future
modifications will require less effort and the final experience will be
less hacky than now..

5) If a user personalize a binding (changing the value of one of these
variables) the changes will apply to all the packages and modes she
uses in his section.

6) If the user wants to use remap or hard-code the binding (as now) the
actual behavior will be unchanged.

7) Packages like elpy, irony, or company will also use the "binding-list",
so the user will only learn the most specific bindings (if any) so
external packages will be standardized with minimal effort.

8) Future bindings changes that the community agree will not require
changes in the files of all the modes. With the potential side effects.

I know that proposing this here is a crazy idea, but the intention is
not to start a crazy war again, If it is crazy (for technical reasons)
just ignore it. Actually I just mention it because it seems to me like
something extremely simple-advantageous and maintainable. With minimal
affections to the user space.

But remember that we have a limited number of bindings so managing them
better is important if we want to find place for new functionalities.

In any case I will leave this threads as it is not going anywhere (as
usual with this topics) and what is obvious for me seems to be heretic
for the rest. But you are free to consider the idea if it has anything
useful for emacs..


>
>> When I use a long M-x sequence, a shortcut suggestion appears. It disappears before I can catch it. Can it stay for 30 seconds? Can there be an instant interactive override to set it whatever you like?
>
>I would like a semi-AI that suggests interactive functions based on key presses or actions the user performs... `You can use C-e (goto-end-line) to perform 12 keystokes you performed.'
>Saying about discoverability, I would like a context-sensitive right-click mouse menu, something like Microsoft Office. Most newcomers are familiar with finding functionality with the mouse; and it isn’t intuitive to find new keybindings/functions that Emacs provide to boost productivity. (Actually, that’s one of my problems; how should I find new functions...?)
>
>> Evolutionary programming of popular custom keybindings collected at upstream and put thru obstacle course competition is one way of composing a spring release.
>>
>> --
>> © 2019 Van L
>> gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
>>                             "The interface is a nightmare." - Brendan Schaub
>>
>
>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[조성빈]

> 2019. 5. 19. 오후 10:00, Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> 작성:
> 
> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 07:35:58PM +0900, 조성빈 wrote:
>> 
>> 2019. 5. 19. 오후 5:16, Van L <van@scratch.space> 작성:
>> 
>>> Emanuel Berg writes:
>>> 
>>>> Ergus wrote:
>>>> I don't consider myself an Emacs expert -
>>>> far from it. But I've been here for 10+
>>>> years, so I'm happy with my Emacs and my
>>>> skill level.  But this place still
>>>> doesn't feel like home!  That is strange.
>>> 
>>> Is it possible to have the best of all possible
>>> worlds?
>>> 
>>> For conservatives, a winter release of old gold keybindings.
>>> For the free radicals, a spring release with modernizations.
>> 
>> What if having a compatibility-mode that can be activated by something like:
>> ```elisp
>> (classic-keybindings-mode 1)
>> ```
>> and refine the default keybindings to be more consistent/mnemonic? People who miss the old keybindings will be elisp-proficient; Adding 1 s-exp to the init file won’t be a barrier.
>> For the refined keybindings, Spacemacs can provide a good starting point.
>> 
> This is interesting. (of course spacemacs not in evil mode).

Yeah, of course evil’s keybindings can’t be a starting point; I was saying that spacemacs classify most keybindings in a pretty consistent way; we can be inspired by that.

> I will just tell an idea I had (before knowing how things work in emacs,
> I actually thought it was implemented in that way)
> 
> If we create a single file with the full list of general bindings as
> variables for all the main modes like
> 
> ;; Basics
> 
> C-a begin-line-binding
> C-e end-line-binding C-b go-backward-line-binding C-d delete-forward-binding
> ...
> 
> ;; Prog mode
> C-c C-c whatever-you-decide-binding
> 
> ;; Minibuffer mode
> bla bla bla
> ...
> 
> And so on.
> 
> All the derived modes can be changed to use the variables instead of
> hard-code the bindings in multiple files.
> 
> this:
> (define-key c-mode-base-map "\C-d" 'c-delete-forward)
> will be:
> (define-key c-mode-base-map delete-forward-binding 'c-delete-forward)
> 
> This is similar to use remap, but with some advantages:
> 
> 1) The bindings will be organized in a single file and the collisions
> will be exposed easily. And fixed for all of them.
> 
> 2) In case a mode adds a new functionality and it needs a binding, it t
> in the global map, it will be clear if some others already have a
> similar one and will bind to the same using the same criteria. If the
> binding has never been used, it will be added to the list for future
> modes that wants the same functionality.
> 
> 3) Old users will be minimally affected because the starting criteria
> are the actual bindings.
> 
> 4) Implementation of test modes (like ergoemacs or evil-mode) and future
> modifications will require less effort and the final experience will be
> less hacky than now..
> 
> 5) If a user personalize a binding (changing the value of one of these
> variables) the changes will apply to all the packages and modes she
> uses in his section.
> 
> 6) If the user wants to use remap or hard-code the binding (as now) the
> actual behavior will be unchanged.
> 
> 7) Packages like elpy, irony, or company will also use the "binding-list",
> so the user will only learn the most specific bindings (if any) so
> external packages will be standardized with minimal effort.
> 
> 8) Future bindings changes that the community agree will not require
> changes in the files of all the modes. With the potential side effects.

This, at least for me, feels like a fantastic idea :-)
IMHO the point of this is that we can now have a list of functions that are common between modes; which will help users having a coherent experience and provides package authors a minimum start point to provide a pretty-good experience.

> I know that proposing this here is a crazy idea, but the intention is
> not to start a crazy war again, If it is crazy (for technical reasons)
> just ignore it. Actually I just mention it because it seems to me like
> something extremely simple-advantageous and maintainable. With minimal
> affections to the user space.
> 
> But remember that we have a limited number of bindings so managing them
> better is important if we want to find place for new functionalities.
> 
> In any case I will leave this threads as it is not going anywhere (as
> usual with this topics) and what is obvious for me seems to be heretic
> for the rest. But you are free to consider the idea if it has anything
> useful for emacs..
> 
> 
>> 
>>> When I use a long M-x sequence, a shortcut suggestion appears. It disappears before I can catch it. Can it stay for 30 seconds? Can there be an instant interactive override to set it whatever you like?
>> 
>> I would like a semi-AI that suggests interactive functions based on key presses or actions the user performs... `You can use C-e (goto-end-line) to perform 12 keystokes you performed.'
>> Saying about discoverability, I would like a context-sensitive right-click mouse menu, something like Microsoft Office. Most newcomers are familiar with finding functionality with the mouse; and it isn’t intuitive to find new keybindings/functions that Emacs provide to boost productivity. (Actually, that’s one of my problems; how should I find new functions...?)
>> 
>>> Evolutionary programming of popular custom keybindings collected at upstream and put thru obstacle course competition is one way of composing a spring release.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> © 2019 Van L
>>> gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
>>>                            "The interface is a nightmare." - Brendan Schaub

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

X Y Z wrote:

>> this: (define-key c-mode-base-map "\C-d"
>> 'c-delete-forward) will be: (define-key
>> c-mode-base-map delete-forward-binding
>> 'c-delete-forward)
>
> This, at least for me, feels like a fantastic
> idea :-)

The idea is a classic computing idea where the
method is to reduce complexity by squeezing in
yet another layer in between.

Here, I'm hesitant because there really is no
complexity to assigning keys to
different modes.

But I might be wrong, so do it! Is what I would
have done. The worst thing that can happen (if
you succeed) is that you have it on your local
Emacs and it makes you happy now and then, and
no one else cares, neither positively or
negatively, really.



             "Do it today - in a different way!"
                - Stuck on Replay, Scooter, 2010
   <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlpNp2HBNUE>

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Ergus]

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 07:35:58PM +0900, 조성빈 wrote:
>
>2019. 5. 19. 오후 5:16, Van L <van@scratch.space> 작성:
>
>> Emanuel Berg writes:
>>
>>> Ergus wrote:
>>> I don't consider myself an Emacs expert -
>>> far from it. But I've been here for 10+
>>> years, so I'm happy with my Emacs and my
>>> skill level.  But this place still
>>> doesn't feel like home!  That is strange.
>>
>> Is it possible to have the best of all possible
>> worlds?
>>
>> For conservatives, a winter release of old gold keybindings.
>> For the free radicals, a spring release with modernizations.
>
>What if having a compatibility-mode that can be activated by something like:
>```elisp
>(classic-keybindings-mode 1)
>```
>and refine the default keybindings to be more consistent/mnemonic? People who miss the old keybindings will be elisp-proficient; Adding 1 s-exp to the init file won’t be a barrier.
>For the refined keybindings, Spacemacs can provide a good starting point.
>
>> When I use a long M-x sequence, a shortcut suggestion appears. It disappears before I can catch it. Can it stay for 30 seconds? Can there be an instant interactive override to set it whatever you like?
>
>I would like a semi-AI that suggests interactive functions based on key presses or actions the user performs... `You can use C-e (goto-end-line) to perform 12 keystokes you performed.'
>Saying about discoverability, I would like a context-sensitive right-click mouse menu, something like Microsoft Office. Most newcomers are familiar with finding functionality with the mouse; and it isn’t intuitive to find new keybindings/functions that Emacs provide to boost productivity. (Actually, that’s one of my problems; how should I find new functions...?)
>
Ohh, Have you seen/used which-key? counsel/ivy list them, but which-key
does the same with the bindings. Spacemacs uses it.

>> Evolutionary programming of popular custom keybindings collected at upstream and put thru obstacle course competition is one way of composing a spring release.
>>
>> --
>> © 2019 Van L
>> gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
>>                             "The interface is a nightmare." - Brendan Schaub
>>
>
>

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Van L]

Ergus writes:

> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 07:35:58PM +0900, 조성빈 wrote:
>>
>>2019. 5. 19. 오후 5:16, Van L 작성:
>>
>>> Emanuel Berg writes:
>>>
>>For the refined keybindings, Spacemacs can provide a good starting point.
>>
>>> [snip]
>>
>> Most
>> newcomers are familiar with finding functionality with the mouse;
>> and it isn’t intuitive to find new keybindings/functions that Emacs
>> provide to boost productivity. (Actually, that’s one of my problems;
>> how should I find new functions...?)
>>
> Ohh, Have you seen/used which-key? counsel/ivy list them, but which-key
> does the same with the bindings. Spacemacs uses it.

Thank you for suggesting the which-key-mode. Awesome.

A possible starting point for transitioning from the mouse to boosting
keyboard productivity is for the right third of the keyboard under the
delete-key to do arrow-key navigation and block/line/page/def jumping
through text by hyper or super key combos on the eight keys around RET
and SHIFT. Sending the right hand all the way to the bottom right corner
for the arrow keys requires an entire hand move, again, to get back.

When Elon Musk ships the Neural Lace Link (NLL) you can be the Dilbert CEO
and think the Strategic Consultant to move the mouse to have things done
for you.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
    "Once you get to that elite level, we are all the same." - Pat Farmer

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Van L wrote:

> A possible starting point for transitioning
> from the mouse to boosting keyboard
> productivity is for the right third of the
> keyboard under the delete-key to do arrow-key
> navigation and block/line/page/def jumping
> through text by hyper or super key combos on
> the eight keys around RET and SHIFT.
> Sending the right hand all the way to the
> bottom right corner for the arrow keys
> requires an entire hand move, again, to
> get back.

Yes, only I think the arrow keys should be
where the right hand already is, or should be
for touch typing, namely at ijkl where i = up,
k = down, j = left, and l = right.

My first computer was a Mac Plus in the late
80s, and there were tons of little games,
Lode Runner and such, and all those used ijkl
like this. And it works great for Emacs as
well! I have M-i "scroll-up-1" and M-k
"scroll-down-1", with M-I "scroll-up-pane" and
M-K "scroll-down-pane" [1] _everywhere_, in
every mode. Awesome stuff!

Now in a recent post I said one should throw
the mouse away. Good idea! But there are
exception where the mouse is helpful, in
application that are visual in nature.
For example GIS and map applications. If we
assume the user isn't a southpaw, so [s]he uses
the mouse with the right hand, the arrow keys
should then not be as above but instead the
wsad keys. Just like in Quake, or Dark Castle,
if we stick to the Mac Plus: aim with the
mouse, move with the keys.


[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/scroll.el

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

X Y Z wrote:

> I would like a semi-AI that suggests
> interactive functions based on key presses
> [...]

Better to learn them yourself by heart IMO.
This comes quickly if you use Emacs every day.

> Saying about discoverability, I would like
> a context-sensitive right-click mouse menu,
> something like Microsoft Office.
> Most newcomers are familiar with finding
> functionality with the mouse; and it isn’t
> intuitive to find new keybindings/functions
> that Emacs provide to boost productivity.
> (Actually, that’s one of my problems; how
> should I find new functions...?)

Easy:

  1) Throw the mouse out the window
  2) (menu-bar-mode 0)
  3) C-h f something-related RET

Also: `apropos', and for interactive functions
in particular: `apropos-command'

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

X Y Z wrote:

> I would like a semi-AI that suggests
> interactive functions based on key presses
> [...]

Better to learn them yourself by heart IMO.
This comes quickly if you use Emacs every day.

> Saying about discoverability, I would like
> a context-sensitive right-click mouse menu,
> something like Microsoft Office.
> Most newcomers are familiar with finding
> functionality with the mouse; and it isn’t
> intuitive to find new keybindings/functions
> that Emacs provide to boost productivity.
> (Actually, that’s one of my problems; how
> should I find new functions...?)

Easy:

  1) Throw the mouse out the window
  2) (menu-bar-mode 0)
  3) C-h f something-related RET

Also:

  `apropos', and for interactive functions in
  particular: `apropos-command'

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

RE: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Drew Adams]

> When I use a long M-x sequence, a shortcut suggestion appears. It disappears
> before I can catch it. Can it stay for 30 seconds? Can there be an instant
> interactive override to set it whatever you like?

`C-h v suggest-key-bindings':

 suggest-key-bindings is a variable defined in `simple.el'.
 Its value is t

 Documentation:
 Non-nil means show the equivalent key-binding when M-x command has one.
 The value can be a length of time to show the message for.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 If the value is non-nil and not a number, we wait 2 seconds.

 You can customize this variable.

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Van L]

Drew Adams writes:

>> When I use a long M-x sequence, a shortcut suggestion appears. It disappears
>> before I can catch it. Can it stay for 30 seconds? Can there be an instant
>> interactive override to set it whatever you like?
>
> `C-h v suggest-key-bindings':
>
>  The value can be a length of time to show the message for.

>  If the value is non-nil and not a number, we wait 2 seconds.
>
>  You can customize this variable.

Thank you. I didn't know the sequence to give C-h v.

The 1 second wait for which-key's idle feels way longer than the 2
seconds here for this. I guess this is due to the resource load on task
focus when you are going from A to B and are surprised by
suggest-key-bindings's advertisement.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
    "Once you get to that elite level, we are all the same." - Pat Farmer

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Van L wrote:

> Is it possible to have the best of all
> possible worlds?
>
> For conservatives, a winter release of old
> gold keybindings. For the free radicals,
> a spring release with modernizations.

Possible.

> When I use a long M-x sequence, a shortcut
> suggestion appears. It disappears before
> I can catch it. Can it stay for 30 seconds?

That should be configurable easily if you find
the variable - go fish!

> Can there be an instant interactive override
> to set it whatever you like?
> Evolutionary programming of popular custom
> keybindings collected at upstream and put
> thru obstacle course competition is one way
> of composing a spring release.

Hm, perhaps you should put your literary
talents to use in a fancy quarterly
"Emacs World" magazine? I'd read it, for sure.
Only perhaps you need an editor, to make the
material a bit more readily digestible. (Here,
I'm not volunteering tho.) That said, don't
stop writing here for the love of it...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

RE: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Drew Adams]

> > When I use a long M-x sequence, a shortcut
> > suggestion appears. It disappears before
> > I can catch it. Can it stay for 30 seconds?
> 
> That should be configurable easily if you find
> the variable - go fish!

https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/48763/105



C-h v echo-keystrokes:

echo-keystrokes is a variable defined in C source code.

Its value is 1

Documentation:

Nonzero means echo unfinished commands after this many seconds of pause.

The value may be integer or floating point. If the value is zero, don't echo at all.

You can customize this variable.


---

(You really should get your email fixed, BTW, so that
Reply All replies also to help-gnu-emacs and not just
to your private email address.  I had to substitute
the mailing list for the latter by hand.)

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Robert Thorpe]

Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> writes:
> I don't consider myself an Emacs expert - far
> from it. But I've been here for 10+ years, so
> I'm happy with my Emacs and my skill level.
>
> But this place still doesn't feel like home!
> That is strange.
>
> I'm not sure your analysis is correct why this
> is tho, but heck, it might be, or part of it
> at least.

I think is mainly because of the way you use this mailing list.

You seem to think of it as something more than a help mailing list.  I
think lots of other people think of it strictly as a help list.

I expect that some of your mails would work better elsewhere.  Perhaps
on a blog or on Reddit.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

Robert Thorpe wrote:

> I think is mainly because of the way you use
> this mailing list.
>
> You seem to think of it as something more
> than a help mailing list. I think lots of
> other people think of it strictly as
> a help list.
>
> I expect that some of your mails would work
> better elsewhere. Perhaps on a blog or
> on Reddit.

Had I known there was no computer culture
whatsoever I would never have done any of this
to begin with.

Taking pride in elitist one-dimensionalness and
the prevailing notion that computer people
should themselves be and act as computers -
it is _in-human_.

Or wait... maybe it isn't elitism or even
a notion... maybe people really *are* like
that? Now had I known _that_, not only would
I never have done any of this, I would have
turned and run as fast as I possibly could,
without ever looking back!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Robert Thorpe]

Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Robert Thorpe wrote:
>
>> I think is mainly because of the way you use
>> this mailing list.
>>
>> You seem to think of it as something more
>> than a help mailing list. I think lots of
>> other people think of it strictly as
>> a help list.
>>
>> I expect that some of your mails would work
>> better elsewhere. Perhaps on a blog or
>> on Reddit.
>
> Had I known there was no computer culture
> whatsoever I would never have done any of this
> to begin with.
>
> Taking pride in elitist one-dimensionalness and
> the prevailing notion that computer people
> should themselves be and act as computers -
> it is _in-human_.
>
> Or wait... maybe it isn't elitism or even
> a notion... maybe people really *are* like
> that? Now had I known _that_, not only would
> I never have done any of this, I would have
> turned and run as fast as I possibly could,
> without ever looking back!

What I'm saying here is about context.

I have nothing against computer culture.  I think it's fairly
interesting, and I sometimes talk about it too.

The point is though, it's not what *this list* is about.  This list is
much more focused on help, as it says in the name.  There are other
forums that are much more loose.

Take Reddit, for example.  Lots of your more off-the-wall mails would be
appreciated on Emacs Reddit.  That's because it's not a forum focused on
help.  By posting off-the-wall stuff here you're irritating others and
also needlessly frustrating yourself.

BR,
Robert Thorpe

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Tomas Nordin]

Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes:

> Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Robert Thorpe wrote:
>>
>>> I think is mainly because of the way you use
>>> this mailing list.
>>>
>>> You seem to think of it as something more
>>> than a help mailing list. I think lots of
>>> other people think of it strictly as
>>> a help list.
>>>
>>> I expect that some of your mails would work
>>> better elsewhere. Perhaps on a blog or
>>> on Reddit.
>>
>> Had I known there was no computer culture
>> whatsoever I would never have done any of this
>> to begin with.
>>
>> Taking pride in elitist one-dimensionalness and
>> the prevailing notion that computer people
>> should themselves be and act as computers -
>> it is _in-human_.
>>
>> Or wait... maybe it isn't elitism or even
>> a notion... maybe people really *are* like
>> that? Now had I known _that_, not only would
>> I never have done any of this, I would have
>> turned and run as fast as I possibly could,
>> without ever looking back!
>
> What I'm saying here is about context.
>
> I have nothing against computer culture.  I think it's fairly
> interesting, and I sometimes talk about it too.
>
> The point is though, it's not what *this list* is about.  This list is
> much more focused on help, as it says in the name.  There are other
> forums that are much more loose.
>
> Take Reddit, for example.  Lots of your more off-the-wall mails would be
> appreciated on Emacs Reddit.  That's because it's not a forum focused on
> help.  By posting off-the-wall stuff here you're irritating others and
> also needlessly frustrating yourself.

No irritation observed over here. On the contrary, without the rantings
of Emanuel this list would be OK, but not at all as interesting as it
is with it. Even with some irretation, makes the list more alive.

Best regards
--
Tomas

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

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On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 03:37:20PM +0200, Tomas Nordin wrote:
> Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes:

[...]

> > Take Reddit, for example.  Lots of your more off-the-wall mails would be
> > appreciated on Emacs Reddit.  That's because it's not a forum focused on
> > help.  By posting off-the-wall stuff here you're irritating others and
> > also needlessly frustrating yourself.
> 
> No irritation observed over here. On the contrary, without the rantings
> of Emanuel this list would be OK, but not at all as interesting as it
> is with it. Even with some irretation, makes the list more alive.

Seconded. Emanuel sometimes manages to overflow my input buffer, then
I have to flush it (sorry, Emanuel!), but I rather prefer a less sterile
list.

Cheers
-- t

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Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs]

tomas wrote:

> Seconded. Emanuel sometimes manages to
> overflow my input buffer, then I have to
> flush it (sorry, Emanuel!), but I rather
> prefer a less sterile list.

No apologizes or explanation needed...

But: where have all the people gone that used
to ask questions about Emacs here, often
several, every day?

If people don't do that, nothing good will ever
happen, I'm afraid, and it doesn't matter what
_we_ do.

Either they do that (look for Emacs support)
somewhere else or there _are_ less people
coming to Emacs today than say 10 years ago. (I
say this (10) because this is when came,
roughly, and I think I found this
list/newsgroup all but instantly.)

I have no data to back this up, and I did the
so called ranting even then, perhaps even more,
but even so, I think I was a much, much bigger
help to "the OP" then than I am today :( Which
besides the depressing aspect is an irony, as
then I knew much less!

And, before anyone points it out, I said
a couple of things, people said a couple of
things about newcomers etc etc - and while
those couple of things might be true, or have
some truth to them, who knows, really? -
regardless of whatever, I don't think for
a minute *that* is the explanation!

People don't come here as they used to to
because either they find support somewhere
else, or the user base has decreased. Maybe the
SX site, which (almost) everyone was against
when it appeared, but I said it would be great,
has come back to haunt me - personally - as
altho I was right, I'd never join the
artificial perfection "reputation hunt" myself.
I very much don't like it and consider it
"reducing", if that is idiomatic English?
(Doesn't sound like it.)

I already know my reputation is ambiguous and
I have no problem with that. It's just who
I am. And I don't want to join some competition
and have people reward or punish me or even
edit my stuff if it doesn't conform to the
"computer people should behave like computers"
paradigm. I just want to be me, here as well as
everywhere else!

OK, now I've talked so much about myself in the
last couple of paragraphs that I hope you still
remember what I wrote even earlier, that
I don't think this is about us. Because I don't
think it works like that.

The Third International (the ML, Communist one)
set up an intricate net of militant parties all
over the world. Number of successful
revolutions: 0

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

[offtopic] Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Van L]

Hello list,

Do you buy books at smile.amazon.com and set your
charity to Free Software Foundation Inc?

To date, $14,629.82 of $134,890,393.33 has been
donated specificly to FSF Inc.  The last quarter
received $1,036.83.

> ask questions about Emacs here

What are the top-10 items to put in
~/.emacs.d/init.el ?  For example, I have

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(package-initialize)
(setq package-archives '(("gnu" . "https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/")
                         ("org" . "https://orgmode.org/elpa/")))
;;; id
(setq user-mail-address "abc@example.org"
      user-full-name "A.B. C")

--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---



-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
           "you have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out" - Donald J. Trump

Re: [offtopic] Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

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On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 07:16:52PM +1000, Van L wrote:
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> Do you buy books at smile.amazon.com and set your
> charity to Free Software Foundation Inc?

For one data point: I never buy books from Amazon. Actually I
never buy anything from Amazon. Ever.

Cheers
-- t

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Re: [offtopic] Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Van L]

<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:

> For one data point: I never buy books from
> Amazon. Actually I never buy anything from
> Amazon. Ever.

Not for you. Then.

Had you bought ebooks from Microsoft
I understand you
lose them all when they shut that down. Soon.

My intent was to suggest to those who buy from
Amazon that they consider the FSF to donate to as
an option.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
           "you have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out" - Donald J. Trump

Re: [offtopic] Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

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On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 09:31:55PM +1000, Van L wrote:
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> 
> > For one data point: I never buy books from
> > Amazon. Actually I never buy anything from
> > Amazon. Ever.
> 
> Not for you. Then.
>
> Had you bought ebooks from Microsoft
> I understand you
> lose them all when they shut that down. Soon.

:-)

Microsoft is also on my no-buy list, BTW.

> My intent was to suggest to those who buy from
> Amazon that they consider the FSF to donate to as
> an option.

Yep, good idea. I still prefer to donate directly :-)

Cheers
-- t

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Re: [offtopic] Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Xavier Maillard]

> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 11:28:04 +0200
> From: <tomas@tuxteam.de>
> 
> [1:text/plain Hide]
> 
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 07:16:52PM +1000, Van L wrote:
> > 
> > Hello list,
> > 
> > Do you buy books at smile.amazon.com and set your
> > charity to Free Software Foundation Inc?
> 
> For one data point: I never buy books from Amazon. Actually I
> never buy anything from Amazon. Ever.

I was about to answer with that link but I just read it again and it seems GNU project opinion has changed since last time

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html

In the meantime, Amazon is part of the Big Techs cartel which I won't
support, ever (for many other reasons than free software & patents).

I am not okay with the fact that GNU is calling to buy from there to get extra revenues, that sounds wrong to me.

        - xma

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Re: [offtopic] Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[tomas]

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On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 06:12:22AM +0200, Xavier Maillard wrote:
> > Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 11:28:04 +0200
> > From: <tomas@tuxteam.de>

[...]

> > For one data point: I never buy books from Amazon. Actually I
> > never buy anything from Amazon. Ever.
> 
> I was about to answer with that link but I just read it again and it seems GNU project opinion has changed since last time
> 
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html
> 
> In the meantime, Amazon is part of the Big Techs cartel which I won't
> support, ever (for many other reasons than free software & patents).
> 
> I am not okay with the fact that GNU is calling to buy from there to get extra revenues, that sounds wrong to me.

+100

In the meantime, I "solve" that problem for me by saying
that, whereas GNU are my heroes, I don't have to agree
on everything they say or do. And this is one point we
disagree on.

IMHO, "platforms" are the new "proprietary software".

Cheers
-- t

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Re: [offtopic] Is Elisp really that slow?

[Jean-Christophe Helary]

> On Jun 12, 2019, at 18:16, Van L <van@scratch.space> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> Do you buy books at smile.amazon.com and set your
> charity to Free Software Foundation Inc?

No, because that's money that's supposed to go to Amazon's workers.

I decided to totally quit Amazon and order all my English books at Powell's, where they pay decent wages to their employees. For books in other languages I order through a local bookstore.


Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune

Re: [offtopic] Is Elisp really that slow?

[Van L]

Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org>
writes:

>> Do you buy books at smile.amazon.com and set your
>> charity to Free Software Foundation Inc?
>
> No, because that's money that's supposed to go
> to Amazon's workers.

The amounts in the spreadsheet is probably a
rounding error and would amount to 3 doses of
daily sugarwater for your yellow vested protester
in Paris per month.

> I decided to totally quit Amazon and order all
> my English books at Powell's, where they pay
> decent wages to their employees. For books in
> other languages I order through a local
> bookstore.

My local favorite bookstore eventually caved and
closed when the 3 customers who offered to buy all
their books in 1 go, did.

-- 
© 2019 Van L
gpg using EEF2 37E9 3840 0D5D 9183  251E 9830 384E 9683 B835
           "you have to be Albert Einstein to figure it out" - Donald J. Trump

Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> You can only call for implementing some
> important functionality, but have no real
> instruments to make that happen, except do it
> yourself (which might not be possible due to
> lack of knowledge/talent/time).

Heck, this kind of comment... *shakes my head*

It is very possible! Just do it! Start today!

_Knowledge_ is accumulated.

There is plenty enough _talent_.

And if you care about _time_, take your
paleo-computer, carefully pull out all the
cables, then throw it out your window! _Or_
disintegrate it with a Multicogan! This will
solve any problems you have experienced with
time, in an instant...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
https://dataswamp.org/~incal