From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thomas Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Release plans Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:42:28 -0700 Message-ID: <48A86304.3020301@emf.net> References: <20080814083817.GA2593@muc.de> <877iak7xfp.fsf@skyscraper.fehenstaub.lan> <873al79akr.fsf@skyscraper.fehenstaub.lan> <48A5BAD7.8030302@emf.net> <48A740CB.4050404@emf.net> <20080816213508.GA8530@muc.de> <48A78EE4.50802@emf.net> <20080817080126.GB1294@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1218992047 31459 80.91.229.12 (17 Aug 2008 16:54:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:54:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: ams@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, hannes@saeurebad.de To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 17 18:54:59 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KUlWs-0008JG-3l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:54:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44646 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KUlVv-0006B8-6l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:53:59 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KUlUk-0005ls-Qk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:52:46 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KUlUj-0005lA-54 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:52:46 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=39784 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KUlUj-0005l6-0z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:52:45 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.42inc.com ([205.149.0.25]:60779) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (SSL 3.0:RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA1:24) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KUlUb-0005GC-0i; Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:52:37 -0400 X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.5 X-TFF-CGPSA-Filter-42inc: Scanned X-42-Virus-Scanned: by 42 Antivirus -- Found to be clean. Original-Received: from [69.236.75.128] (account lord@emf.net HELO [192.168.1.64]) by mail.42inc.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPA id 37065616; Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:52:22 -0700 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060808) In-Reply-To: <20080817080126.GB1294@muc.de> X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:102552 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie wrote: > The ability to link binary libraries into Emacs means the > ability to link non-free binaries in (think Linux modules > here), possibly with _very_ useful functionality, whose > inclusion could screw up Emacs's freedom in a significant way. > Five years from now, lots of people could be "freely" chosing > this "non-free" version. This would be damaging to the aims > of the FSF. Lots of things might happen in the future. >> It is defeatism if you think that Emacs maintainers can't >> easily hack their way out of [popular, non-free Emacs >> add-ons] or even if you think that that's a likely outcome. > "Defeatism". That's a sort of ad hominem, No, it is not. "Defeatism" means a mode of strategic or tactical reasoning in which it is assumed that the only choices are between various losses. The assumption in the dynamic loading decision is that either GNU Emacs loses by not having a dynamic loader, or GNU Emacs loses by having non-free, C-level add-ons catch on. Defeatism is a kind of "planning to lose" and if defeatism is the only reasoning applied then it is self-fulfilling: loss of some kind is assured. > which seems intended to deflect from analysing whether > something's true or not. In contrast, THAT is an ad hominem. You see, you ascribed intent ("intended") to the speaker. In particular, you ascribed malicious intent ("deflect"). And you used this to argue against what the speaker was saying. THAT is an ad hominem attack. > And no, it's not defeatism. We can hack our way out of > software problems fairly easily, that's what we do. But > you're kidding yourself in the extreme if you think you can > just hack your way out of a legal problem, or a social > problem. I'm afraid I get a bit lost in the theoretical abstractions of possible future legal and social problems. Here is what I see: A dynamic loader *might* lead to non-free, C-level add-ons. A dynamic loader *might* then lead to non-free add-ons that become very popular. A dynamic loader (well designed) *will* lead to opportunities to write valuable free software C-level add-ons. Therefore it *might* lead to free software add-ons being written and some of those *might* become very popular. Conversely, no dynamic loader means no add-ons, either free or non-free. No dynamic loader means *certainty* that GNU will not enjoy the benefits of having a dynamic loader in Emacs. No dynamic loader means *certainty* that no non-free add-ons will be created. If the free and non-free software worlds are regarded as opposing armies, the GNU army's choice is to either inflict a loss on both sides (no dynamic loader -- the defeatist strategy) or afford both sides a possible win (possible free and non-free add-ons). I happen to believe that there is *power* in freedom. If both the free and non-free army is given the chance to create add-ons, the free army (if it plays intelligently) can obtain more benefit from the opportunity in the long run. The same advantage, offered to both sides, is worth more to the free side. >> I'm saying it's completely underwhelming. > Yes, but you're doing it by shouting loudly, disparaging > people by calling them "defeatists", Actually, you made that up. You falsely accused me of making an ad hominem attack. You then made an ad hominem attack against me. Now, here, you are making another ad hominem attack against me. > and evading others' arguments rather than facing them head on. > My last post was an attempt to get you to analyse these > arguments. I did and concluded that they are defeatist arguments. See above. >> Stephen said it a different way. I said it already. There >> is no "must be weighed and balanced" here. Yes, that's what >> RMS would have us believe -- that it is a judgment call and >> one that has to be made centrally and who better to make >> it.... > RMS is battle hardened with bitter experience behind him. > He's possibly the only one of us with any useful feel for > legalities. There is nobody better to make the final > judgement. Why is any "final judgement" needed over this question? It's only a judgment call *if* you believe that the consequence of non-free add-ons can possibly be reason enough to avoid a feature. If you reject that defeatism, then no judgment (of that sort) is needed here: the question of whether or not to have a dynamic loader in GNU Emacs can hinge entirely and appropriately on its utility to free software developers and users. > I've heard your argument and I accept it as far as it goes, > but it doesn't go far enough. You're oblivious to some of the > wider issues - responding to these with words like "defeatism" > isn't useful discussion. The "wider issues" (the purported social consequences, the chances that GNU Emacs will get effectively 'taken over' by non-free add-ons, etc) are beyond analysis. Nobody knows what will really happen. There's a lot of hot air going around on those wider issues but I don't think it adds up to much. We know with absolute certainty, though, that adding a dynamic loading feature to GNU Emacs will let people write and share free software add-ons to GNU Emacs. All else being equal, I think it is safe to call that outcome a "win" for software freedom. We can assume, with absolute conservatism, that non-free add-ons *will* result and *will* become popular. No reason to believe it but let's assume it. Let's assume the worst case imagined. What then? Short answer: "We'll have to think of something." Longer answer: We'll have to think of something but we'll also be in an enriched circumstance. We'll be enriched because we have the option to write free software GNU Emacs add-ons. We'll be enriched because we didn't waste time arguing against a feature with defeatist reasoning. As a rule of thumb, we shouldn't inflict losses on ourselves (such as not having a dynamic loader) unless there is very clearly no other choice. Otherwise, we should always hack *as if we are certainly going to win software freedom for everyone*. Assuming we will win software freedom for everyone, the question of whether or not to add a dynamic loader is a question of: "Will the free users of GNU systems, and the free developers of GNU systems, benefit from the feature?" (The answer to that one seems a no-brainer!) >> How did you become persuaded of the supposed "dangers" in the >> first place? > By carefully paying attention to what people have been saying > and thinking about it. From "Elephant Talk" (King Crimson) Talk, its only talk Arguments, agreements, advice, answers, Articulate announcements Its only talk Talk, its only talk Babble, burble, banter, bicker bicker bicker Brouhaha, boulderdash, ballyhoo Its only talk Back talk Talk talk talk, its only talk Comments, cliches, commentary, controversy Chatter, chit-chat, chit-chat, chit-chat, Conversation, contradiction, criticism Its only talk Cheap talk Talk, talk, its only talk Debates, discussions These are words with a d this time [....] Ok, I'm not really that nihilist about it but there is a lot of hot air going around imagining the consequences of a feature like dynamic loading or imagining how Emacs influences Windows users or imagining how a "typical worker" can influence his workplace to switch away from windows or...... Enough Already! Too much "making stuff up" and guesswork. I'm sure everyone's contributions are not *random* -- there is some relation to reality there -- but collectively the discussion is just aimless, hopelessly abstract, way to hypothetical, and so doomed to go in tiny circles. That hot air is mostly very elaborate fantasizing and it has been going on for 20 years. Meanwhile, we have 20 years of actual history to compare to it. For all of GNU's efforts to discourage the development of proprietary software one of our largest economic achievements has been contributions to the GNU/Linux platform that was a key catalyst to two dot com bubbles and an explosion of companies developing non-free software to run on the GNU/Linux platform. To be sure, nobody wrote a non-free front-end to GCC using the (banned) tree print/read functionality. Nobody wrote a non-free C-level add-on to GNU Emacs using the (banned) dynamic loading facility. Yet, those tools and the shell tools are the glue that binds the main components of the LAMP stack: one of the largest growth platforms for proprietary software in years and years. The way to defeat non-free software in the market is to hone the corpus of available free software so that, when developing new software and new software products, it is always "faster, cheaper, better, and profitable" to develop new programs as free software programs. Everytime we "ban" a feature from the GNU system because of a defeatist perception of risk, we retreat from the goal of making it economically natural to write new programs as free software programs. That is, we retreat from the goal of software freedom for everyone. -t