all messages for Emacs-related lists mirrored at yhetil.org
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
To: rms@gnu.org
Cc: acm@muc.de, ams@gnu.org, Johannes Weiner <hannes@saeurebad.de>,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Release plans
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 03:41:24 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <48A63044.2000700@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1KTygT-0004QF-BH@fencepost.gnu.org>

Richard M. Stallman wrote:
> Millions of people use Windows.  Why?  Partly because that's what came
> on the machine, partly because they don't care, and partly by choice.

It is a bit temptating to see this list as grasping all possibilties. I 
think that is a mistake.

I happened to watch the rise of ms windows. I was astonished and had a 
hard time to understand what was happening. No one of course can really 
tell the reason behind the success, but some things I noticed where:

- The advertising campaign from MS said to the user "you should decide 
what programs you have on your pc". Very smart. If you tried to tell 
users that there are better programs (there were!) then you just had to 
face that the user "wanted to decide".

- The free software world in my opinion did exactly the opposite. It 
said to the users "we know what is best for you" (because we are 
smarter). This is a psychological mistake. And it is not an easy one to 
cure.

- The unix vendor at that time had the best software. I tried to 
encourage them to make something that we could actually use in a company 
environment. The response I got was "we are best", "when the user 
understands they will chose us". Ok, they were best, but today the user 
can rather understand that windows is no longer technically inferior (at 
least not overall). So as I see it there were clearly something that the 
unix vendors did not understand: meeting the needs of the users and the 
companies. (The unix vendors did of course not make free software, but 
the grounds for free software is standards and that is why the unix 
vendors where important.)

- First ms focused on GUI aspects and usability. When I read messages 
from experts at ms on this subject I often found the messages 
surprisingly good. It looked to my like they did take it seriously - and 
that really requires much thought.

- The free software world seem sometimes to think that creativity 
regarding GUI is  making a new GUI. (MS rather integrated different 
aspects and made the interface uniform. And that was not made out of 
laziness, it was as I saw it after careful thought.)

- One of the strength that ms today has it that it has control (at least 
to some degree) over cooperation between different parts of its 
software). They can achieve that because they have everything under one 
umbrella and also have the man power to try to achieve it. Cooperation 
is a very, very difficult thing in my opinion. Complexity and scaling 
jumps in.





  reply	other threads:[~2008-08-16  1:41 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 338+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2008-08-12 14:34 Release plans A Soare
2008-08-12 14:52 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 17:14 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-13  6:26   ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-13  9:20     ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-14  5:19       ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-14  8:38         ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-14  9:33           ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-14  9:49             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2008-08-14 10:04               ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-14 10:30                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-14 11:07                   ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-14 11:44                     ` Tassilo Horn
2008-08-14 12:27                       ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-15 12:45                       ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-14 12:39                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-14 13:15                       ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-14 13:28                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-14 13:41                           ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-14 17:08                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-14 14:30                         ` Gilaras Drakeson
2008-08-14 18:00                       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-15 12:45                         ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-15 14:18                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-15 17:54                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-15 12:45                       ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-15 16:29                         ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-16 10:40                           ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-14 10:37                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2008-08-14 11:24                   ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-14 12:54                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2008-08-14 13:31                       ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-14 14:02                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2008-08-14 16:55                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-15 12:45                         ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-16  1:41                           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail) [this message]
2008-08-17  7:16                             ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-15  3:41                 ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-15  4:04                   ` Sean O'Rourke
2008-08-15 20:12                     ` Michael Ekstrand
2008-08-15  5:08                   ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-16  0:08                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-16  5:14                       ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-15 17:20                   ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-16 10:39                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-16 12:05                       ` joakim
2008-08-17  7:16                         ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-17  9:32                           ` joakim
2008-08-18  6:14                             ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-18  7:19                               ` Tassilo Horn
2008-08-18  8:03                               ` Stefan Monnier
2008-08-18  8:26                               ` joakim
2008-08-19 12:21                                 ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-19 13:02                                   ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-20  3:47                                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-20  5:20                                       ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-19 13:42                                   ` Tassilo Horn
2008-08-20  3:48                                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-18 14:20                               ` Gilaras Drakeson
2008-08-18 17:13                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-18 17:42                                 ` Paul R
2008-08-19 12:21                                 ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-20  0:01                                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-21 23:09                                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-22  0:34                                       ` whither GNU Thomas Lord
2008-08-22  0:17                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-08-22  3:40                                           ` David Robinow
2008-08-22  7:36                                             ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-23  5:09                                               ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-22 10:21                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-08-22 21:31                                               ` Thomas Lord
     [not found]                                                 ` <858wuoad0u.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>
2008-08-23  4:56                                                   ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-16 16:29                       ` Release plans Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-16 21:04                       ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-16 21:35                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-16 22:43                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-17  7:31                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-18  0:01                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-18 10:18                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-18 17:58                                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-18 20:20                                     ` Dynamic loading (was: Release plans) Stefan Monnier
2008-08-18 22:18                                       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-20 16:15                                         ` Dynamic loading Stefan Monnier
2008-08-20 16:57                                           ` joakim
2008-08-25 13:09                                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-26 16:37                                             ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-18 21:09                                     ` Release plans Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-18 23:27                                       ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-19 10:23                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-19 11:56                                           ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-19  9:46                                       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-19 12:36                                         ` Robert J. Chassell
2008-08-20  5:55                                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-20 17:48                                             ` Robert J. Chassell
2008-08-25  1:34                                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-25 10:47                                                 ` Robert J. Chassell
2008-08-25 13:13                                                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-25 15:19                                                     ` Robert J. Chassell
2008-08-25 17:11                                                       ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-26  4:10                                                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-26 10:59                                                           ` Robert J. Chassell
2008-08-27  5:00                                                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-27 11:37                                                               ` Robert J. Chassell
2008-08-28  5:42                                                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-28 10:17                                                                   ` Robert J. Chassell
2008-08-26 16:37                                                       ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-26 18:14                                                         ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-27 18:54                                                           ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-27 20:33                                                             ` Paul R
2008-08-29  2:41                                                               ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-29  5:34                                                                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-29 11:39                                                                   ` Bruce Stephens
2008-08-29 13:11                                                                     ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-29 19:23                                                                       ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-29 20:03                                                                         ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-08-29 20:20                                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2008-08-29 20:53                                                                             ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-29 23:24                                                                               ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-29 22:56                                                                             ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-30 19:51                                                                             ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-08-30 23:07                                                                               ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-31  9:09                                                                                 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-08-29 22:53                                                                           ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-31  9:27                                                                             ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-08-29 19:13                                                                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-29 23:48                                                                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-09-01  6:11                                                                   ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-09-01 18:25                                                                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-27 22:32                                                             ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-27 21:57                                                               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2008-08-28  0:10                                                                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-29  2:40                                                                   ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-29  5:30                                                                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-27 22:09                                                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-28  1:10                                                                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-09-01  6:11                                                                   ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-09-01 18:09                                                                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-09-02  1:09                                                                       ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-09-02  2:18                                                                         ` Thomas Lord
2008-09-02 14:13                                                                           ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-09-02 20:48                                                                             ` Thomas Lord
2008-09-01 18:20                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2008-09-01 20:17                                                                       ` Thomas Lord
2008-09-01 19:53                                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2008-09-01 21:23                                                                           ` Thomas Lord
2008-09-02  3:26                                                                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-09-02 20:43                                                                           ` Thomas Lord
2008-09-03  5:08                                                                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-27 23:09                                                               ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-28  0:22                                                                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-28  1:01                                                                   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-26 21:25                                                         ` joakim
2008-08-29  2:41                                                           ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-19 15:52                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-25 14:39                                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-25 22:01                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-25 22:19                                               ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-26  4:54                                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-26  7:16                                                 ` ["agree"] " Thomas Lord
2008-08-27  5:10                                                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-27 16:00                                                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-26 10:02                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-27  5:38                                                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-27 21:06                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-27 21:12                                                       ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-28 20:01                                                         ` Sean Sieger
2008-08-28  6:07                                                       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-27 15:57                                                 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-08-27 18:33                                                   ` tomas
2008-08-28  6:09                                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-28  8:14                                                       ` tomas
2008-08-28  7:25                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-28  8:23                                                       ` tomas
2008-08-28  6:26                                                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-19 16:31                                         ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-20  3:47                                         ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-20  6:14                                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-19 12:21                                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-19 13:04                                       ` Paul R
2008-08-20  3:48                                         ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-17  2:37                           ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-17  8:01                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-17 17:42                               ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-17 21:07                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-17 21:24                                   ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-17 21:33                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2008-08-17 22:31                                       ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-18  3:06                                   ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-18  6:14                                   ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-17 21:45                                 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-08-18  6:14                                 ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-18 17:09                                   ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-19 16:28                                   ` René Kyllingstad
2008-08-20  3:48                                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-17  7:16                           ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-15  3:41               ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-15 17:17                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-16 10:40                   ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-16  7:14                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2008-08-14 17:24             ` Stefan Monnier
2008-08-15  3:41           ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-15 14:04             ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-15 15:10               ` [OT] " Yavor Doganov
2008-08-16  7:05                 ` Miles Bader
2008-08-17  7:16                   ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-15 16:35               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-15 18:07                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-16 10:40               ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-16 10:40               ` Richard M. Stallman
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2008-08-14 15:36 Robert J. Chassell
2008-08-14 15:51 ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-14 21:00   ` Robert J. Chassell
2008-08-14 22:58     ` Johannes Weiner
     [not found] <SRV-ADEXCHyjlMFAVNL0000090e@waccglobal.org>
2008-08-13 14:07 ` Mike Rowse
2008-08-13  1:30 A Soare
2008-08-12 20:51 A Soare
2008-08-12 21:35 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 20:16 christophe
2008-08-12 18:57 A Soare
2008-08-12 18:54 A Soare
2008-08-12 18:58 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 18:41 A Soare
2008-08-12 18:46 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 18:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-08-12 18:38 A Soare
2008-08-12 18:36 A Soare
2008-08-12 18:04 A Soare
2008-08-12 18:21 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 18:25   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 15:34 A Soare
2008-08-12 15:59 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 13:51 A Soare
2008-08-12 13:37 A Soare
2008-08-12 13:50 ` martin rudalics
2008-08-12 17:16   ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-12 14:02 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 14:54 ` Paul R
2008-08-12 18:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-08-12 19:16   ` Óscar Fuentes
2008-08-12 19:41     ` Paul R
2008-08-12 13:11 A Soare
2008-08-12 13:20 ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-08-12 15:54   ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-13  6:26     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-13  7:05       ` Johannes Weiner
2008-08-12 13:24 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 12:21 A Soare
2008-08-12 12:33 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 13:42 ` Michael Ekstrand
2008-08-13  6:27   ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-13  7:14     ` Alex Ott
2008-08-12 14:45 ` Miles Bader
2008-08-12 14:56   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-12 16:47   ` Drew Adams
2008-08-13 20:20     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-12 18:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-08-05  2:53 dhruva
2008-08-05  4:43 ` tomas
2008-08-05 21:48 ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-07-31  9:54 dhruva
2008-07-31 22:01 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-07-30  9:58 dhruva
2008-07-31  1:59 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-07-31  9:30   ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-07-31 22:01     ` Richard M Stallman
2008-08-01 14:15       ` Frank Schmitt
2008-08-01 14:51         ` Miles Bader
2008-08-02  5:12         ` Richard M Stallman
2008-08-02  7:20           ` Frank Schmitt
2008-08-03  1:33             ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-03 11:38               ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-08-03 22:42                 ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-03 23:16                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-08-04 15:55                   ` Davi Leal
2008-08-05 21:48                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-12  4:48                   ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-12  7:30                     ` Miles Bader
2008-08-12 15:37                       ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-12 10:32                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-12 16:08                       ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-13 20:20                         ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-03 13:48               ` Nic
2008-08-03 22:42                 ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-01 15:31       ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-02  5:12         ` Richard M Stallman
2008-08-02 17:12           ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-02 23:46             ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-03  1:33             ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-03 18:01               ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-04 15:33                 ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-12  4:24               ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-12 10:32                 ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-12 16:12                   ` Thomas Lord
2008-08-03  1:33             ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-03 17:51               ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-04 15:33                 ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-04 19:08                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-08-05  8:05                     ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-08-01 17:39       ` Davi Leal
2008-08-02  5:12         ` Richard M Stallman
2008-07-14 15:07 Chong Yidong
2008-07-17  0:27 ` Juri Linkov
2008-07-17  6:41   ` David Kastrup
2008-07-21  4:49 ` Chong Yidong
2008-07-21  8:06   ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-07-21 13:32     ` Chong Yidong
2008-07-21 14:19       ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-07-23 20:52   ` Michael Albinus
2008-07-23 21:42     ` Chong Yidong
2008-07-26  7:39   ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-07-26 21:33     ` Richard M Stallman
2008-07-27  3:22       ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-07-27 17:14         ` Richard M Stallman
2008-07-27 19:14           ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-07-28 21:46             ` Richard M Stallman
2008-07-29  3:12               ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-07-30  3:47                 ` Richard M Stallman
2008-07-30 17:33                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-07-28 13:43     ` Juri Linkov
2008-07-28 14:10       ` Chong Yidong
2008-07-28 14:33         ` Juri Linkov
2008-07-29 17:11           ` Chong Yidong
2008-07-29 17:54             ` Stefan Monnier
2008-07-29 15:21     ` Roland Winkler
2008-08-02 17:34     ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-08-09 18:29       ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-08-09 18:34         ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-08-09 19:06           ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-07-31  2:10   ` Bastien
2008-07-31  2:43     ` Chong Yidong
2008-07-31  8:06       ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-08-01  2:53         ` Bastien
2008-08-01 19:26 ` Jay Belanger
2008-08-01 19:32   ` Chong Yidong
2008-08-02 16:12     ` Jay Belanger
2008-08-02  4:08   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-08-02 17:30   ` Richard M Stallman
2008-08-05  4:04   ` Bill Wohler

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=48A63044.2000700@gmail.com \
    --to=lennart.borgman@gmail.com \
    --cc=acm@muc.de \
    --cc=ams@gnu.org \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    --cc=hannes@saeurebad.de \
    --cc=rms@gnu.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this external index

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git

This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.