From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: What does 'run' do in cperl-mode? Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:44:21 +0200 Message-ID: <488E4BC5.1050407@gmail.com> References: <0ded5ecd-f5f6-4a8e-9d19-f61bf0401022@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com> <86hcad9ar4.fsf@lifelogs.com> <0bb45e96-f9f3-4451-a457-004bb5930c76@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <86wsj66sby.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6a01ec87-795c-4306-a698-d6d6ba85afdd@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com> <4686f80e-74eb-4ebb-bec4-dff587f3a510@a6g2000prm.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217285129 509 80.91.229.12 (28 Jul 2008 22:45:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:45:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Xah Lee Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 29 00:46:19 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KNbTu-0007qP-Rz for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:46:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55635 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KNbT0-0003pF-If for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:45:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KNbSD-0003Wf-TJ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:44:34 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KNbSD-0003Vr-5I for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:44:33 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=41384 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KNbSC-0003VW-IN for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:44:32 -0400 Original-Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net ([80.76.149.212]:53698) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KNbSA-00018Y-Vd for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:44:31 -0400 Original-Received: from c83-254-151-176.bredband.comhem.se ([83.254.151.176]:64583 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KNbS8-0006z4-63; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:44:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 In-Reply-To: <4686f80e-74eb-4ebb-bec4-dff587f3a510@a6g2000prm.googlegroups.com> X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080728-0, 2008-07-28), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Originating-IP: 83.254.151.176 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KNbS8-0006z4-63. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1KNbS8-0006z4-63 b051ba15a2fb3ace7d63f398e19dc610 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6? (barebone, rare!) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:56007 Archived-At: Xah Lee wrote: > well, actually i'm surprised that you disagree with some of my points. That is good. Then you have noticed I disagree ;-) > Ok, more specifically, in our topic here, you want the Alt key to > behave like other Windows apps. Namely, it invokes menu when pressed > by itself, and invoke command when pressed together with another key. > In other words, conforming to Window's UI guidelines. Yes. I believe that on Windows it should do that. Otherwise a lot of users will be scared away. > As you know, on Apple's OSX, it follows a slightly different GUI > guideline. In particular, in OSX there's no such key like Window's Alt > that invokes a menu by itself... (traditinoally, Windows UI is > designed such that users can operate the computer by keyboard alone > without a mouse; but traditionlly Apple doesn't do this unless you > count turning keypad into a pointing device... but since about ~2004 > in OSX Apple started to have a bunch of keys (usually Ctrl+Fn) to > navigate GUI elements... In short, how user uses keyboard to operate > the computer follows quite a different model than on Windows) Thanks. I did not know about this. I guess what happened is that the accessibility requirements forced Apple to do allow keyboard navigation. I think that is good. I fear however that it is a bit unfortunate they invented their own way. This can perhaps make things worse for people with disabilities. (And it makes me wonder about Apple's priorities.) > if i think correctly, you always stands by the Windows way. So, in > your opinion, my suggestion for using the notation “Alt+‹key›” for > emacs's “M-‹key›” is not good because that's incompatible with the > Window's way of pressing Alt by itself to invoke graphical menu. > > Yes i can see that'd be a problem. But your Windows way is a nutcase, > and is not compatible with emacs tradition anyway. LOLz! I hope emacs > developers here will flame you to death first. They already have. This is my second incarnation. Or is it the third? You kind of loose your memory. > Of course, we are getting onto a philosophical issue of whether to > have one's own interface or follow one of the major OS. The Java > platform tried to force its own interface (e.g. widgets looks and > feel), but basically failed. When a java program runs on Windows, > people want it to look and feel like Windows. When it runs on Mac, > people want it to look and feel like Mac. Basically, the crucial > factor is just market share. People are habituated with whatever they > are. They dont want to change. Java tried to squeeze its UI look and > feel starting with 0% market share into the meaty Windows UI or Mac > UI; sure it fails. I think the lesson from Java is obvious: do what people expect on different platform. They expect Alt to activate the menus on Windows. But of course in Emacs make it an option. Never force it on the users. The current policy is that a standard Emacs (ie "emacs -Q") should behave the same on all platform. It is not a bad choice (but does not work since Emacs to be useful in many cases requires helper programs). There is however nothing that prevents you and other to write different schemes corresponding to different platform for users to easily choose from. I have written some tools for it. And very good tools like cua-mode and Viper are included in Emacs. > However, with emacs, i think emacs has a chance to stand on its own. > Because, as you know, emacs precedes Windows or Mac. That does not matter. Users (except those who already use Emacs) does not care about that.