From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stephen Eilert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs for new users Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:16:16 -0300 Message-ID: <485b0c380911231316o72b32465m4444dbadf59aca9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@mail.gmail.com> <4p4rt6-2ne.ln1@lesharris.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=002354530928074b2c0479105600 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1259011651 17873 80.91.229.12 (23 Nov 2009 21:27:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:27:31 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Les Harris Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 23 22:27:24 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1NCgRM-0004et-BT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:27:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47744 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCgRL-0003Cw-RP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:27:19 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCgGj-0005QY-FG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:16:21 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCgGf-0005Pm-RV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:16:21 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=33118 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCgGf-0005Pi-Ld for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:16:17 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-fx0-f213.google.com ([209.85.220.213]:51757) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NCgGf-0000Rp-AG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:16:17 -0500 Original-Received: by fxm5 with SMTP id 5so6689677fxm.8 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:16:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=4DIqMjLPH05/dA4ow6qIb+vJbycHVlzd9/0OYulq4Uo=; b=SnLMCZiSOgBSgiMxFwdxKTxgNFrIPaSboJf9MUQj3hrZxFwneFg/wR8PQqZsqpBcli u9hxV6seo3BJw9GjH1MXPtVnm1Ci68Mf6X7odCNfFOzyaCTvMSGdusfQ4kYlPweK5kMS YS3kHtjRpbM4zkBKmpRiNULoPSZ8Cpz42Z6ho= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=gqYrrR4MS0N1zbX7g1wZDnWmzw7TuCsw0JSYsThBCPHlO96MJYAG4k0HqaZ6pMu1sC i93owNw3dVFel4AWwkkPBVhi9lzWaTreBlAmCATDyvtt++TV9TGqqmNpW5kVWGxGF1/K FAs4Xw136oOzo+zXR8ZNJODxdOmYBz2Sy2rj8= Original-Received: by 10.223.161.205 with SMTP id s13mr876373fax.70.1259010976598; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:16:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4p4rt6-2ne.ln1@lesharris.com> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:117626 Archived-At: --002354530928074b2c0479105600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Les Harris wrote: > Lennart Borgman writes: > > > It is quite strange to not include Emacs. On the other hand it points > > to how important it is too make it easy to start using Emacs. I think > > we should have to move to adhere better to existing GUI standards (CUA > > for example, but that is a hot potato). > > First let's get the tautologies out of the way: Emacs is a complex > system with many features and extreme extensibility. > > With that axiom in mind I would argue that any attempt to add a veneer > of simplicity over the top is doing a disservice to would-be emacs > users. > The extensibility part comes with need. As users become more familiar with Emacs, they might want to extend it to improve their workflow. However, to reach that point, it is necessary that they become familiar with it to begin with. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Emacs is "dumbed down". Rather, the idea should be to make it easier for new users to transfer their existing skills. --Stephen programmer, n: A red eyed, mumbling mammal capable of conversing with inanimate monsters. --002354530928074b2c0479105600 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Les Har= ris <lharris@gnom= e.org> wrote:
Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:

> It is quite strange to not include Emacs. On the other hand it points<= br> > to how important it is too make it easy to start using Emacs. I think<= br> > we should have to move to adhere better to existing GUI standards (CUA=
> for example, but that is a hot potato).

First let's get the tautologies out of the way: Emacs is a comple= x
system with many features and extreme extensibility.

With that axiom in mind I would argue that any attempt to add a veneer
of simplicity over the top is doing a disservice to would-be emacs
users.

The extensibility part comes with need. As = users become more familiar with Emacs, they might want to extend it to impr= ove their workflow.

However, to reach that point, it is necessary th= at they become familiar with it to begin with. I don't think anyone is = suggesting that Emacs is "dumbed down". Rather, the idea should b= e to make it easier for new users to transfer their existing skills.


--Stephen

programmer, n:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0A red eyed, mumbling mammal capable of conversing with inanimate = monsters.
=C2=A0

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