From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:40:14 +0200 Message-ID: <480D09BE.4000709@gmail.com> References: <004a01c8a1a0$7215cdd0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <878wz9btq8.fsf@jurta.org> <85fxthy4qp.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87hcdxz9zr.fsf_-_@jurta.org> <480C112F.1030407@emf.net> <20080421205728.GD4554@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1208814199 16807 80.91.229.12 (21 Apr 2008 21:43:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:43:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: juri@jurta.org, Thomas Lord , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 21 23:43:52 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jo3na-0007o5-IM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:43:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo3mr-0001gg-9k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:42:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo3lm-0001As-Fz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:41:50 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo3lk-00019f-15 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:41:50 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo3lj-00019Z-SU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:41:47 -0400 Original-Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net ([80.76.149.212]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jo3lA-0001pQ-6T; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:41:16 -0400 Original-Received: from c83-254-150-27.bredband.comhem.se ([83.254.150.27]:62341 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Jo3kZ-0004v3-3G; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:40:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 In-Reply-To: <20080421205728.GD4554@muc.de> X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080421-0, 2008-04-21), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Originating-IP: 83.254.150.27 X-ACL-Warn: Too high rate of unknown addresses received from you X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1Jo3kZ-0004v3-3G. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1Jo3kZ-0004v3-3G 21c21e81beb2ccd21148c604c58edb6b X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6? (barebone, rare!) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:95706 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> A useful "quasi-quantization" to consider is how many bits of state a >> user must keep in mind to accurately predict the dynamically variable >> behavior of self-insert-command. (One is probably pushing it and I >> gather that emacs is going well into N>1 territory. Bummer.) > > I think this is the most important point in this discussion (and many > others). An essential feature of Emacs is that N = 0, or at least has > been until recently. That is what distinguishes it from both vi and > typical lesser editors, and IMAO is a critical part of what makes Emacs > such a joy to use. Hi Alan and Thomas, In a sense I agree, but for that I have to stretch my definition of 0 quite a bit ... ;-) Beeing more serious I think that the base mix of states should be as stable as possible. However that should be true both for new and old users. As we have seen from the discussion even long time users may have great trouble accomodating to changes in the base state. For some period (short or long) the new and old base state must be available in memory and I guess this can interfere with other psychic activity. I believe that for new users it is even worse. They tend to use other applications beside Emacs and that means that the new and old base state comes from different applications and must be kept available in memory for as long time that the user uses both Emacs and other applications (or have changed Emacs to use cua-mode and maybe some other things). I am not sure how important the burden of the state is, but I guess that some of the upset feeling might come from this burden. Some surely come from other psychic domains. BTW, do you know that stressed animals tend to seek the familiar surroundings even if the stress factor is there? Perhaps this can be translated to that stress is something that can block creativity in certain circumstances.